Kris question to the knowledgeables

[Mans]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

Thanks Pusaka,
I think some forumities has told about the meaning of the marks on the keris.
In here, I just want to give the example of the keris from the old and distinguishing with the keris from next period. Why the old keris made with no ricikans as the keris from next generations Just the simple shape. Perhaps because on old period, their appreciation about the art or philosophy just like that Thats because perhaps, they just want the Tuah or something else in the Anmism and Dynamism faith.

So, if we want to know from where the keris, when it made, or which the culture or religions has influenced, we must know about the keris as overwhole aspects (Jawa = Pasikutan). Specifically on the iron, pamor and technique of forging. Not just the Dha which you try to analyzed. Its just the one aspect.

We can to keep changing some symbols or numeral to get the matching with the Ricikan on the keris. But how with another ricikans which has no compatible with any symbols like Ada-Ada or Kruwingan or Sogokan

So, I didn't think so that your theory about the Dha and Greneng can be used to give the reason that the keris came from India, Indonesia or somewhere else. Many region has self histories. So that why if we want to learn the keris, we must put it on the clear locus and focus.

For another example : http://www.diskusi.fotopic.net/c534452.html
The two keris at there came from Singosari (small) and Bangkinang (Riau / Sumatera). Its has different lenght, the iron forge ect, but also has similarities. So, can we analyzed that just from Ricikans ? I didn't think so. We can analyze more clear if we know about the journey of Singosari people to Sumatera and the other hand at past.

So, go back to Antonio questions, perhaps any forumities known the journey of Moro or Moslem people at there, where and where Did they has connections with India or Indonesia or etc Also we can connecting the story by period.

I just know (in the Jawanese history) that Sriwijaya Kingdom at Palembang and Majapahit Kingdom at East Jawa has the region till Moro about 9th century and 14th century. So, can we said that the Sriwijaya and Majapahit influencing the Moro Keris ? Then cultures of the Moro people continuing their appreciations about the art of the keris till now (free from religion values)

[MABAGANI]

As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions.
http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm
http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp
http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg

[BSMStar]

Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing.

Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence.

It may be a starting point.

[Pusaka]

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Pusaka, to answer your first question, yes, the Javanese (not Indonesian) alphabet and Sanskrit do seem to have some common forms in their alphabets.
In terms of your second question, i don't think you have really met much resistance with your theory that the Javanese Mojopahit empire was linked to Indian influences. My argument was over the specificity of you AUM claim. I agree with you that the roots of the keris most probably lie in India. But that is just the roots. The ricikan that we have been discussing doesn't appear until sometime around the 14thC, so they were most probably developed in Jawa, not India. But the influences seem to be clearly there.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Hi there Pusaka,

The Majapahit Empire was Jawanese not Indian and although it was influenced by India and Hinduism it also took influence from Buddhism and China. Islamic settlements were also present in the Majapahit capital. Long before Majapahit the kings in Jawa had declared that Syiwa and Buddha are the same and they created a new syncretic religion based on this idea.

Cheers,
KC

[MABAGANI]

If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline?