a sail guard left hand dagger

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

with the permission of Casey, here is a picture of the last dagger in the condition how it was found before cleaning.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams ulfberth, I was quite surprised to learn that Florentine Technique
is the art of wielding two weapons at once, one in each hand. It is a style developed by the Italians in the city of Florence, hence the name. Some people prefer to call this method "Two-Swords" or even simply "Two-Weapons".

Florentine exists in multiple ways with multiple weapons. The two most common methods are the Sword and Dagger method and the Dual-Sword method. I also note that the dagger was also worn on its own on occasions when it was not practical to wear a rapier...

Sword and Dagger is the original style of Florentine fighting. Your dominant hand holds a quick sword and your off hand holds a large specially designed dagger. These large daggers would often have hidden blade trappers making them much more effective than they seemed. The French called this dagger a main gauche, which literally means "left hand". This method is very difficult to master, but amazingly powerful.

Below...The sketch is described more or less as getting the technique wrong! The photo is of a modern tournament showing a block and the close up of the dagger is a clear picture of the blade entrapment device ...

I note that: Though it required more coordination that most other fighting styles, particularly with the off-hand, when practiced well, Florentine could be a devastating technique. It combined a versatile defense with furious offense, but like all styles of fighting without a shield, it was particularly vulnerable to archery. For this reason, some Florentine fighters chose to wear a buckler or a back shield.
On a large field, Florentine fighters typically served as skirmishers and flankers, as they could have been quickly shot down by archers when in a line.
Does anyone have any artwork showing the Sail guard in action ?

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight !

It seems that the different styles of fencing is as intriguing as the weapons they used , and learning more about the one leads to better understanding of the other, as is the case with many things in life.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight !

It seems that the different styles of fencing is as intriguing as the weapons they used , and learning more about the one leads to better understanding of the other, as is the case with many things in life.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Thank You Ulfberth ~ You have started a great thread... I hope it runs on and on...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Hi ulfberth,
It seems as you don't mind having this thread hijacked with further considerations on the subject.
Perhaps the following text, roughly translated from a Spaniard's post, would fix some possible failures on what has been considered so far.

http://mundomilitaria.es/foro/index.php?topic=11902.0


"These daggers were popularly known as Vizcaínas, due to the origin of a great number of them been forged with steel of Vizcaia. Together with the Roperas (rapiers) were carried those known as dagas de mano izquierda (left hand daggers) or, better saying, dagas de detener (parrying daggers), which was the name they received in Spain, once the ‘left hand’ term was a galicism provenant from the French denomination for this type of weapons, ‘main gauche’. The proliferation of renaissance fencing manuals concerning the development of combat with double weapons, took sword smith masters to design various types of daggers for such type of fencing. Therefore the appearance of the uniquely Spanish (Españolisimas) sail guard daggers, which were and are a symbol of parrying daggers; also other designs were developed, like trident daggers and rompe-puntas (sword breakers)
The left hand dagger had its origin in the XVI century, when the ‘double arms’ fencing appeared, that is, the combined use of the sword and left hand dagger for the parrying of the adversary blows and, being the case, take advantage of some mistake from his defense and penetrate in his body.
However its real expansion was known as from the first third of the XVII century, having been created in Spain its own version of this type of daggers combined with its companion sword, when pieces were made with the finest decorations.
The origin of its name is based on its hand guard, similar to a latin sail. This addition meant a notable advance in the protection of the hand, once until then these daggers only counted with a cross guard similar to their larger sisters for the parrying of the adversary blows, as well as to avoid the hand slide to the blade when stabbing.
Cncerning quality, they were celebrated in all Europe, not only those from Toledo, but also those from Vizcaia and Guipuzcoa".

If you don't mind, i will also include pictures of my own sail guard dagger.
Remember that, during the discussed period, Portugal was under Spanish domination, so not surprising that swords and daggers were alike in both nations.

Also some clips on the art of fighting with these weapons may be useful ... skiping the language difference:

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyU5ndSTWxc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPLyHzaI-4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ovV5shSBk


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here are a few Spanish daggers ... There are a lot more at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/265923552973872432/ ....In this case I will show a few 17th to 19th Century variants with the full sail hilt...The trick when fencing was,amongst other things, to have each weapon on a different plain so as to avoid having both swept aside with an opponents sweep stroke...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A picture at last of a duel using the left hand Sail Dagger...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams to all ~ John Pettie RA painted the above masterpiece between an Englishman and a foreigner. He was famous for his paintings of the English Civil Wars and the Jacobite Rebellion thus is shown in a wonderful web page freebook directly accessible on

https://archive.org/stream/johnpetti.../n213/mode/2up

at about page 90 and the artwork a couple of pages after...In addition some amazing artwork on people of the period and some swashbuckling paintings of Scottish warriors in battle dress...He is further noted for superb atmosheric pictures of Duels. See Below..The Time of Day and Commencement of the Quarrel.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi ulfberth,
It seems as you don't mind having this thread hijacked with further considerations on the subject.
Perhaps the following text, roughly translated from a Spaniard's post, would fix some possible failures on what has been considered so far.

http://mundomilitaria.es/foro/index.php?topic=11902.0


"These daggers were popularly known as Vizcaínas, due to the origin of a great number of them been forged with steel of Vizcaia. Together with the Roperas (rapiers) were carried those known as dagas de mano izquierda (left hand daggers) or, better saying, dagas de detener (parrying daggers), which was the name they received in Spain, once the ‘left hand’ term was a galicism provenant from the French denomination for this type of weapons, ‘main gauche’. The proliferation of renaissance fencing manuals concerning the development of combat with double weapons, took sword smith masters to design various types of daggers for such type of fencing. Therefore the appearance of the uniquely Spanish (Españolisimas) sail guard daggers, which were and are a symbol of parrying daggers; also other designs were developed, like trident daggers and rompe-puntas (sword breakers)
The left hand dagger had its origin in the XVI century, when the ‘double arms’ fencing appeared, that is, the combined use of the sword and left hand dagger for the parrying of the adversary blows and, being the case, take advantage of some mistake from his defense and penetrate in his body.
However its real expansion was known as from the first third of the XVII century, having been created in Spain its own version of this type of daggers combined with its companion sword, when pieces were made with the finest decorations.
The origin of its name is based on its hand guard, similar to a latin sail. This addition meant a notable advance in the protection of the hand, once until then these daggers only counted with a cross guard similar to their larger sisters for the parrying of the adversary blows, as well as to avoid the hand slide to the blade when stabbing.
Cncerning quality, they were celebrated in all Europe, not only those from Toledo, but also those from Vizcaia and Guipuzcoa".

If you don't mind, i will also include pictures of my own sail guard dagger.
Remember that, during the discussed period, Portugal was under Spanish domination, so not surprising that swords and daggers were alike in both nations.

Also some clips on the art of fighting with these weapons may be useful ... skiping the language difference:

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyU5ndSTWxc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPLyHzaI-4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ovV5shSBk


.

Hi Fernando,

thank you for the additional information on the subject and btw nice dagger you got there
I do believe the two daggers are 16th C and were made before the more classic Spanish design.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

thank you for the art work, the dagger in the above right corner seems to be resembling the most to the two daggers.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Salaams Ibrahiim,

thank you for the art work, the dagger in the above right corner seems to be resembling the most to the two daggers.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams the artwork in the Frame by John Pettie RA shows the black dressed opponent with a sail dagger in left hand... plus rapier in right... His English Opponent with a different dagger...

See http://art.thewalters.org/detail/336...eft-hand/where it describes this weapon as...Quote"This dagger has a short, pointed, double-edged blade. It was attached to the sword belt and worn on the right hip with the sword on the left. Following the new tactics in swordsmanship of the late 1500s, the dagger was wielded by the left hand with a light sword or rapier in the right. New forms evolved to accommodate this parrying function: long crossguards, a side ring, and prongs parallel to the blade to protect the fingers and catch or block an opponent's sword. This type of dagger, with its large, triangular, convex guard with a raised rim to deflect the opponent's blade, was developed in Spain but produced in Italy in the mid-1600s to accompany cup-hilted rapiers such as Walters 51.501. Like the rapiers, they were intricately decorated with chiseling and piercing". Unquote.