a sail guard left hand dagger

[CSinTX]

Blade mark.

[fernando]

Ah ... now we have to distinct provenances; and may i guess the blade might have been shortened from a sword (rapier?) one, both due to its unusual (?) tapering and mainly due to the advanced position of the makers mark .
A mark that doesn't appear to be Spanish; none of the Toledo smith marks in the Palomar chart seem to have such symbol and those are usually puntched inside an estucheon. Didn't find it in Wallace Collection book, either. Maybe Italian ?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... now we have to distinct provenances; and may i guess the blade might have been shortened from a sword (rapier?) one, both due to its unusual (?) tapering and mainly due to the advanced position of the makers mark .
A mark that doesn't appear to be Spanish; none of the Toledo smith marks in the Palomar chart seem to have such symbol and those are usually puntched inside an estucheon. Didn't find it in Wallace Collection book, either. Maybe Italian ?

Hi Fernando,

as you, Jim also suggested this and the dagger certainly looks Italian.
The hilt reminds of the style of the Italian crab claw hilts as does the sail guard.
Furthermore, this dagger was found in untouched condition together with a similar dagger which is almost certainly Italian, it bears a + mark on its ricasso which I found in the book "waffen des abendlandes" on page 40 its described as Italian 16th C collection Dal Pozzo Mailand.
Note that the rings on the grip are the same style to.
I hope Casey is able to post some pictures of this example to.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[fernando]

You are right ulfberth, i skipped that previous opinion because i was much influenced by the shell shape engraving on the guard, as i also previously noted.
And ... what do you say about the blade having been longer and that of a sword ?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are right ulfberth, i skipped that previous opinion because i was much influenced by the shell shape engraving on the guard, as i also previously noted.
And ... what do you say about the blade having been longer and that of a sword ?

At first that was my thought to, however since the fuller is rather short I don't rule out the possibility that it could be the blade of a dagger, but you are right it could just as well be a re-used rapier blade.
You gave me something to think about with the shell shape on the guard this shell shape also comes back in the form of 16th C Italian pommels.
All this does not have to be unusual at all since many rapiers and swords used by the Spanish were often of Italian origin.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Furthermore, this dagger was found in untouched condition together with a similar dagger which is almost certainly Italian, it bears a + mark on its ricasso

I hope Casey is able to post some pictures of this example to.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Yes, perhaps the best thing about this dagger is that it has a sibling which contains it's original blade. Either made by the same smith or no doubt from the same shop. Amazing to be found together after so many years.

Here is the only picture that I had a chance to resize. It may be a few days for the rest.

[ulfberth]

Thanks for posting the pictures Casey !
These are two exceptional daggers indeed, the dagger on the left has the face of a bearded man and hat on the sail guard.
Here I found a drawing from Michaels Katzbalger thread, were the man in the middle has the same kind of hat.
Hans Sebald Nurnburg circa 1540

[CSinTX]

2nd dagger.

[CSinTX]

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