Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Kubur,
I can't remember seeing a positively identified European made blade in the 'Eastern' style that had Islamic script psuedo or otherwise on the blade but as always I'm open to contradiction.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I am aware that there was a trade in arms made in the 'Eastern' style by European manufacturers for export to countries where that style was prevalent.

I agree Norman, while European trade blades of course often carried spurious markings and inscriptions, these had to do with imbued quality implications as well as certain appeal to certain clientele. However, as far as I have ever known, no attempts were ever made to duplicate any sort of Arabic or other Islamic form inscriptions, cartouches or markings. There was sometimes copy of 'Arabesque' style motif, which was simply decorative and of course false 'damascene'.

On the other hand, European style markings and inscriptions were often copied by native artisans in various ethnographic spheres, and these of course were typically readily recognizable as false.

The efforts to duplicate "Eastern " style by the west was primarily metallurgical, to the watered steel quality of the blade, as well as often to blade features such as yelman, yataghan type recurve etc .
When Osborne was researching to develop the British cavalry sabre which became the M1796, he examined numerous 'Oriental' forms such as kilic; shamshirs and tulwars. A good number of early models for officers had distinct yelmans on blades and at least one had a yataghan type blade.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

However, as far as I have ever known, no attempts were ever made to duplicate any sort of Arabic or other Islamic form inscriptions, cartouches or markings. There was sometimes copy of 'Arabesque' style motif, which was simply decorative and of course false 'damascene'.

Hi Guys,

I agree with you for Western Europe. After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans.

I don't agree with you for Central and Eastern Europe. I think that the swords in this thread (Norman's sword and the three swords that I presented) are purely Austrians. As Jim said Poland or Bulgaria have a long history with the Islamic world and Ottoman weapons (as the Karabella hilt).
Nevertheless I don't know any Ottoman example identical to the swords in this thread. If you find one Ottoman example with such blades, please put it on line as I did. A last word, we cannot discard that the sword-markers working for the Austrian Empire came from the Ottoman Empire. Such blades are admirable and require a lot of knowledge.

Best,
Kubur

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
I have received information from a reputable source that the blade on this sword is not of Ottoman manufacture and therefore the only conclusion that I can come to is that the blade is indeed of European/Austrian origin manufactured in the Ottoman fashion. The blade has most likely been rehilted a few times depending on the hilt pattern of the day and does show some marks indicating possible action. There are remains of gilding where hilt and blade meet and this sword must have been a 'bit of a looker' in its heyday. Many thanks to Jim et al who contributed to this thread but particularly to Kubur whose insistence made me delve further than I had previously.
My Regards,
Norman.