Trebizond arms with huge amount of corals?

Jens Nordlunde · 13th December 2005, 01:31 PM

Wolviex, it is always a pleasure to see your pictures, and it is an interesting question you ask. Unfortunately I can’t participate in the discussion, as my interests go in another direction, but I think you will be surprised how many of these kind of weapons you will find, and to my opinion they were court/parade weapons.

Jens

VANDOO · 13th December 2005, 03:45 PM

I WOULD AGREE WITH JENS THEY WERE FOR COURT, PARADE OR ANY OTHER SPECIAL OCCASION BUT WERE USUALLY FUNCTIONAL WEAPONS. THEY MAY HAVE DEVELOPED BECAUSE OF VALUE OR BELIEFS IN POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THE CORAL AND STONES OR COLORS USED OR JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKED GOOD TO THE LOCALS. IT WOULD CERTIANLY BE A SYMBOL OF POWER AND WEALTH WHEN WORN ON PUBLIC OCCASIONS AND MAY HAVE BECOME THE FASHION AT SOME PERIOD OF TIME OVER A WIDER AREA.
MOST OF THIS TYPE OF DECORATION HAS NEVER APPEALED TO ME BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE SILVER (WHITE METAL) LOOKS. THE EXAMPLES YOU SHOW ARE MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT IS USUALLY SEEN AND I DO LIKE THEM BUT IN MY OPINION THEY WOULD LOOK BETTER IN STERLING SILVER.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2005, 09:47 PM

Hi Michal,
Absolutely breathtaking weapons! Although many would consider such weapons ostentatious, one cannot deny the beauty of the work, and I especially admire the corals. It seems these corals are seen on a number of Ottoman produced weapons, and these were often produced as presentation weapons for influential Ottoman figures in the considerable detente between regions under their suzereignty and European powers in the latter 18th-early 19th centuries. In the display catalogue for the Richard Wagner collection privately published some years ago, such weapons are seen, one miguelet completely encrusted in corals, and presented by the Dey of Algiers in the early 19th c. It is noted these weapons were often crafted with turquoises, rubies and garnets in the taste of Russian and Polish courts, presumably in their favor.

Dr. Zygulski in his essay "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Thier Provenance" (1979, Elgood, "Islamic Arms and Armour" p.213), notes that Poland developed an affinity for certain Turkish styles in about the second half of the 18th century, and Turkish arms had become exceedingly popular among the gentry from the many trophies acquired. It is suggested that many of these weapons were created in Istanbul, while many sabres with drooping quillons made in India of karabela form, and known as 'indyczka' (Indian like) were available.

I would presume the dominantly coral items somewhat rare as that motif seems somewhat unusual, and that suggestion was made in a discussion some time ago, possibly by Mr. Wagner when discussing the Algerian miguelet in his collection.

I am under the impression these sumptuous sabres, and such like decorated weapons in general, are presentation items of probably late 18th to mid 19th century, and likely were mounted in Turkey, and purchased for such use by influential Ottoman figures and thier courts.

All the best,
Jim

Mark · 13th December 2005, 09:55 PM

Is the reason for the seed or teardrop shape of the corals known? Virtually every weapon decorated in this way that I have seen has the coral in particular with this shape.

B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:47 PM

hi michal,
i'm afraid i row in the same boat as jens, so can only offer a hatful of images (you did mention the rarity and existence of similar pieces). i too believe these to be 'parade' pieces, although some are known to have older blades. i have always thought the indian equivalent are jade hilts daggers - same quality in blades but hilts move them away from the battlefield and into the court.

hi jim

B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:50 PM

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B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:51 PM

and more

13th December 2005, 10:47 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i'm afraid i row in the same boat as jens, so can only offer a hatful of images (you did mention the rarity and existence of similar pieces). i too believe these to be 'parade' pieces, although some are known to have older blades. i have always thought the indian equivalent are jade hilts daggers - same quality in blades but hilts move them away from the battlefield and into the court. hi jim Attached Images

13th December 2005, 10:50 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	more Attached Images

13th December 2005, 10:51 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	and more Attached Images

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13th December 2005, 01:31 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wolviex, it is always a pleasure to see your pictures, and it is an interesting question you ask. Unfortunately I can’t participate in the discussion, as my interests go in another direction, but I think you will be surprised how many of these kind of weapons you will find, and to my opinion they were court/parade weapons. Jens

13th December 2005, 03:45 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD AGREE WITH JENS THEY WERE FOR COURT, PARADE OR ANY OTHER SPECIAL OCCASION BUT WERE USUALLY FUNCTIONAL WEAPONS. THEY MAY HAVE DEVELOPED BECAUSE OF VALUE OR BELIEFS IN POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THE CORAL AND STONES OR COLORS USED OR JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKED GOOD TO THE LOCALS. IT WOULD CERTIANLY BE A SYMBOL OF POWER AND WEALTH WHEN WORN ON PUBLIC OCCASIONS AND MAY HAVE BECOME THE FASHION AT SOME PERIOD OF TIME OVER A WIDER AREA. MOST OF THIS TYPE OF DECORATION HAS NEVER APPEALED TO ME BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE SILVER (WHITE METAL) LOOKS. THE EXAMPLES YOU SHOW ARE MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT IS USUALLY SEEN AND I DO LIKE THEM BUT IN MY OPINION THEY WOULD LOOK BETTER IN STERLING SILVER.

13th December 2005, 09:47 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Michal, Absolutely breathtaking weapons! Although many would consider such weapons ostentatious, one cannot deny the beauty of the work, and I especially admire the corals. It seems these corals are seen on a number of Ottoman produced weapons, and these were often produced as presentation weapons for influential Ottoman figures in the considerable detente between regions under their suzereignty and European powers in the latter 18th-early 19th centuries. In the display catalogue for the Richard Wagner collection privately published some years ago, such weapons are seen, one miguelet completely encrusted in corals, and presented by the Dey of Algiers in the early 19th c. It is noted these weapons were often crafted with turquoises, rubies and garnets in the taste of Russian and Polish courts, presumably in their favor. Dr. Zygulski in his essay "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Thier Provenance" (1979, Elgood, "Islamic Arms and Armour" p.213), notes that Poland developed an affinity for certain Turkish styles in about the second half of the 18th century, and Turkish arms had become exceedingly popular among the gentry from the many trophies acquired. It is suggested that many of these weapons were created in Istanbul, while many sabres with drooping quillons made in India of karabela form, and known as 'indyczka' (Indian like) were available. I would presume the dominantly coral items somewhat rare as that motif seems somewhat unusual, and that suggestion was made in a discussion some time ago, possibly by Mr. Wagner when discussing the Algerian miguelet in his collection. I am under the impression these sumptuous sabres, and such like decorated weapons in general, are presentation items of probably late 18th to mid 19th century, and likely were mounted in Turkey, and purchased for such use by influential Ottoman figures and thier courts. All the best, Jim

13th December 2005, 09:55 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Is the reason for the seed or teardrop shape of the corals known? Virtually every weapon decorated in this way that I have seen has the coral in particular with this shape.