Backwards hit on WWII-era Moro Kris. Mistake?

VANDOO · 27th September 2014, 06:27 PM

THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED ABOUT TOO. I HAVE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES OVER THE YEARS AND IT SEEMS UNLIKELY THEY WERE ALL DONE BY AMATEURS WHO TOOK OUT A BLADE AND PUT IT BACK IN WRONG ACCIDENTALLY. NOT MANY COLLECTORS OR ADVENTURERS WHO BROUGHT BACK A SOUVENIR OR WAR TROPHY EVER TOOK OUT THE BLADES AND REMOUNTED THEM. A LOCAL MORO SWORD SMITH WHO MADE, REPAIRED AND SOLD SWORDS REGULARLY WOULD NOT BE MAKING MISTAKES.
EACH INDIVIDUAL OR SCHOOL HAD THEIR OWN FIGHTING STYLES WHICH ARE MOSTLY UNKNOWN TODAY SO SUCH A VARIATION OF BLADE ORIENTATION MAY HAVE BEEN USED. PERHAPS THEY HAD SOME WARRIORS LIKE SOME NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS WHO DID EVERYTHING BACKWARDS. EVEN GOING SO FAR AS TO RIDE THEIR HORSE FACING BACKWARDS A HANDY THING IF SHOOTING AT ENEMIES WHO ARE CHASING YOU.

DISCLAIMER (THIS MAY BE A STORY MADE UP FOR WESTERN MOVIES OR A REAL STORY ?)
OFTEN WE ARE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE THINGS BASED ON A NORM OR ON EXAMPLES FROM THE FEW REFERENCE BOOKS AVAILABLE.

DaveA · 27th September 2014, 07:15 PM

Thanks for the comments. You have both nicely framed the question. In times of desperation, does one turn to tradition (which may not be working very well), or innovation?

Battara · 28th September 2014, 12:55 AM

Not only do I agree with Ian, but I will add that I have known that later owners take off the hilts and re-hilt then in the wrong direction. I have seen this for kris, kerns, and even Igorot head axes.

Emanuel · 28th September 2014, 05:26 AM

Hello,

The pommels on kris are traditionally aligned with the greneneg carving on the base of the blade. The elephant trunk is the front, and the "dragon tail" is back. If the blade is sheathed in the scabbard in the manner appropriate for a correct draw, with the elephant head still pointed forward, would it make sense for the pommel decoration (the cokatua head or horse hoof) to face backwards?

If the handle was intentionally kept "backwards" then the pommel would point into the body when the sword is sheathed and worn in the traditional manner, thrust through a sash.

A backward position also digs into the wrist when held with the "tail" guarding the back of the hand. I don't see the sense in this disposition

Emanuel

Sajen · 28th September 2014, 12:16 PM

Have all a look to this threads, by the first one the handle is turned also in the "wrong" direction and the "show"-side of the scabbard is the one which is normally the back side: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris
Here is the handle in the correct direction but the show side of the scabbard is again unusual: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris
I think I have asked this question before: Why is the show side of the scabbard mainly by this kris with MOP from WWII area turned around?

kai · 30th September 2014, 10:23 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

Have all a look to this threads, by the first one the handle is turned also in the "wrong" direction and the "show"-side of the scabbard is the one which is normally the back side: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris
Here is the handle in the correct direction but the show side of the scabbard is again unusual: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris
I think I have asked this question before: Why is the show side of the scabbard mainly by this kris with MOP from WWII area turned around?

I believe we need a poll on this to get some numbers; on old as well as on MOP kris (seperately)...

Regards,
Kai

David · 30th September 2014, 06:03 PM

Well, if we are taking a poll my vote falls squarely on "mistake". Dave made a comment in the posting of the kris that brought about this thread and again here about "form following function", but as others have already responded, the hilt on backwards in this manner does not make any sense from a practical martial standpoint. I think we see this happen in the same way we sometimes see Javanese planar hilts often turned around backwards on keris, because uninformed western collectors and/or dealers incorrectly believe that is the way they are supposed to be. Of course, it's much easier to simply turn them around to the proper orientation.

27th September 2014, 06:27 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED ABOUT TOO. I HAVE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES OVER THE YEARS AND IT SEEMS UNLIKELY THEY WERE ALL DONE BY AMATEURS WHO TOOK OUT A BLADE AND PUT IT BACK IN WRONG ACCIDENTALLY. NOT MANY COLLECTORS OR ADVENTURERS WHO BROUGHT BACK A SOUVENIR OR WAR TROPHY EVER TOOK OUT THE BLADES AND REMOUNTED THEM. A LOCAL MORO SWORD SMITH WHO MADE, REPAIRED AND SOLD SWORDS REGULARLY WOULD NOT BE MAKING MISTAKES. EACH INDIVIDUAL OR SCHOOL HAD THEIR OWN FIGHTING STYLES WHICH ARE MOSTLY UNKNOWN TODAY SO SUCH A VARIATION OF BLADE ORIENTATION MAY HAVE BEEN USED. PERHAPS THEY HAD SOME WARRIORS LIKE SOME NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS WHO DID EVERYTHING BACKWARDS. EVEN GOING SO FAR AS TO RIDE THEIR HORSE FACING BACKWARDS A HANDY THING IF SHOOTING AT ENEMIES WHO ARE CHASING YOU. DISCLAIMER (THIS MAY BE A STORY MADE UP FOR WESTERN MOVIES OR A REAL STORY ?) OFTEN WE ARE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE THINGS BASED ON A NORM OR ON EXAMPLES FROM THE FEW REFERENCE BOOKS AVAILABLE. Last edited by VANDOO; 27th September 2014 at 06:56 PM.

27th September 2014, 07:15 PM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 417	Good arguments on both sides Thanks for the comments. You have both nicely framed the question. In times of desperation, does one turn to tradition (which may not be working very well), or innovation?

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28th September 2014, 12:55 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Not only do I agree with Ian, but I will add that I have known that later owners take off the hilts and re-hilt then in the wrong direction. I have seen this for kris, kerns, and even Igorot head axes.

28th September 2014, 05:26 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, The pommels on kris are traditionally aligned with the greneneg carving on the base of the blade. The elephant trunk is the front, and the "dragon tail" is back. If the blade is sheathed in the scabbard in the manner appropriate for a correct draw, with the elephant head still pointed forward, would it make sense for the pommel decoration (the cokatua head or horse hoof) to face backwards? If the handle was intentionally kept "backwards" then the pommel would point into the body when the sword is sheathed and worn in the traditional manner, thrust through a sash. A backward position also digs into the wrist when held with the "tail" guarding the back of the hand. I don't see the sense in this disposition Emanuel

28th September 2014, 12:16 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,274	Have all a look to this threads, by the first one the handle is turned also in the "wrong" direction and the "show"-side of the scabbard is the one which is normally the back side: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris Here is the handle in the correct direction but the show side of the scabbard is again unusual: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=WWII+kris I think I have asked this question before: Why is the show side of the scabbard mainly by this kris with MOP from WWII area turned around?

30th September 2014, 06:03 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Well, if we are taking a poll my vote falls squarely on "mistake". Dave made a comment in the posting of the kris that brought about this thread and again here about "form following function", but as others have already responded, the hilt on backwards in this manner does not make any sense from a practical martial standpoint. I think we see this happen in the same way we sometimes see Javanese planar hilts often turned around backwards on keris, because uninformed western collectors and/or dealers incorrectly believe that is the way they are supposed to be. Of course, it's much easier to simply turn them around to the proper orientation.