The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ian

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

Salaams Ian, Actually it's not just horse guards ... The Entire British and many foreign armed forces of whatever branch Army, Navy, Airforce have Guards some of whom carry swords..and which ...though they would never be involved in a Battle are used in saluting etc...and even used at military weddings...quite a parallel with the Omani dancing sword.

A note on heraldry as it is likely that the Heraldic Society would never accept the terminology but it fits in general; The current Dynasty commenced very roughly in about 1744...and the Dancing Sword was concocted at that time or shortly therafter, thus, I term it Heraldic~Dynastic. To salute the monarch and conduct the traditions or Funun...until today. It had to be extremely flexible but was also razor sharp and spatulate tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with another weapon upon which it was largely designed; The Omani Battle Sword. See thread on that please.

I have compared the Dancing Sword with the Omani Batle Sword but the new part of the design was the long Omani Hilt taken from the Omani curved Kattara (see that thread please) which was a slave captains sword and Merchants Sword acting both as a badge of office and a defensive weapon/punishment item.

I have searched high and low ... but no evidence exists anywhere of any battle in which the dancing sword may have been used and when you see the blade it is pretty clear why... It is not a battle blade and is weak and very flexible... thus excellent as a safe sword to buzz at march pasts and pageantry. The killer sword in the Oman armoury has always been the Omani Battle Sword which could take a mans leg off but is stiff and configured differently in the hilt...

The late Anthony North expounded on the now well known theory of retaining a weapon that worked... That is the case here... The ancient Old Omani Battle Sword is honoured from about the mid 19th C with a replacement Royal Hilt which can be seen today~ even carried by the Ruler although any man can wear it...And most of them do! though at the time when it was inaugurated the population was by comparison much smaller and it permeated across the population rather than exploded but would have spread in popularity steadily..via the Palace and religious guards...

The very important functions handed over at the beginning of this Dynasty were from the Old Omani Battle Sword to the new dancing sword...including the buckler shield; as I say... in honour and for Pageant and Salutations...but not the fighting function.

Since 1970 masses of Ethiopian straight stiff blades have been expertly rehilted on Omani Longhilts and Omani Scabbards in Muttrah Souk Muscat having been imported via Yemen from Ethiopia...often made in Germany. These are not original Omani fighting swords but classed as Tourist items.

That is the point of the discussion.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

The example I'd be interested to see which I don't think I have yet in this thread or the other discussions about this type, would be a dated late 18th or early 19th century dance/parade sword. I've seen plenty of the more recent ones with flexible blades, but not a dated older one.

[Sancar]

Here are pictures of two swords from İstanbul Military Museum. Both are signed and there are no questions and doubts about their origin and age. I believe this will give new clues about the subject at hand(I am sorry that photos are a little dark):

First one is a Memlük sword from 13th century:







Second one is an Eyyubi sword from 12th century; made for Necmeddin Eyyub:







I know two little about the topic at hand(and I thank both participants of the discussion, I learned a lot from this topic) but to my uneducated eyes, these sword look very very similar to "dancing swords" mentioned here. They even have rounded tips. (I also want to add Indian straight sword Khanda also has rounded tips yet they are battle swords)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Sancar

Here are pictures of two swords from İstanbul Military Museum. Both are signed and there are no questions and doubts about their origin and age. I believe this will give new clues about the subject at hand(I am sorry that photos are a little dark):

First one is a Memlük sword from 13th century:







Second one is an Eyyubi sword from 12th century; made for Necmeddin Eyyub:







I know two little about the topic at hand(and I thank both participants of the discussion, I learned a lot from this topic) but to my uneducated eyes, these sword look very very similar to "dancing swords" mentioned here. They even have rounded tips. (I also want to add Indian straight sword Khanda also has rounded tips yet they are battle swords)

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Like this I think.....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

The example I'd be interested to see which I don't think I have yet in this thread or the other discussions about this type, would be a dated late 18th or early 19th century dance/parade sword. I've seen plenty of the more recent ones with flexible blades, but not a dated older one.

Yes you are right... they are in somewhat short supply but I am looking and one will surely turn up. It would be interesting if I could find the initial commissioning document but no such detail appears to exist...and it is quite hard to determine the precise Ruler who kicked off the dancing sword trend but I tend to favour the first since he was also an IMAM...Having said that it could be that the item did not start until the advent of Said bin Sultan in 1804. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_bi...uscat_and_Oman

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Yes you are right... they are in somewhat short supply but I am looking and one will surely turn up. It would be interesting if I could find the initial commissioning document but no such detail appears to exist...and it is quite hard to determine the precise Ruler who kicked off the dancing sword trend but I tend to favour the first since he was also an IMAM...Having said that it could be that the item did not start until the advent of Said bin Sultan in 1804. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_bi...uscat_and_Oman

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It really is essential to the timeline and history of the type as you've presented it I think, to show a flexible example dated to the 19th century. As I said, I have only seen 20th century examples of the type you describe dating back to or close to the 18th century. This is a case where concrete examples are needed ascertain this completely. Otherwise I'm afraid it will always be open to interpretation because there is a rather massive gap. Best of luck with finding one and please do share when you do!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It really is essential to the timeline and history of the type as you've presented it I think, to show a flexible example dated to the 19th century. As I said, I have only seen 20th century examples of the type you describe dating back to or close to the 18th century. This is a case where concrete examples are needed ascertain this completely. Otherwise I'm afraid it will always be open to interpretation because there is a rather massive gap. Best of luck with finding one and please do share when you do!

Indeed. What is equally interesting is the absolute lack of information anywhere connecting the early dynasty with the dancing sword. I take the formal guestimate of 1744 as the date of the first Ruler of the current dynasty but not a single dynastic sword clue exists and til now I have wondered why?

In seeking out the best contender for the introduction of a dynastic sword logic points the finger at the ruler; Said bin Sultan ruled with his brother for a couple of years 1804 to 1806 then singly after than til he died in 1856 off Zanzibar. During his rule a number of Dynastic items appeared including the Royal Turban and the Royal Hilted Khanjar designed by Sheherazad... one of his wives...and at some later date the Battle Sword was made a Royal Hilt. It was during this time that the strategic manouvre to develop Zanzibar happened...

Could it be that the dancing sword actually popped up a lot later than I am searching for... and that is why no very early swords exist?...Perhaps it was at the front end of his rule in the 1810 region...but that the full flow out to the regions and general population took a lot longer...(ie whereas troopers had the thing but the general population got it a lot later).... Thinking aloud...that could explain a lot. I have rechecked the Richardson and Dorr and few clues exist ...which is interesting. Their weapons make up a sizeable set of the countries museum stock.

I shall endeavor to research the archives at the National Museum since their display is dynasty dedicated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
I am a little confused here. Are you saying the sword hilt illustrated in post#68 on the now closed "Forts and cannons..." thread is a post 1970 muttrah souk rehilt on a german\ethiopian blade for the tourist trade? I can see it is a modern hilt but it's quality seems to me suggest a very superior tourist was needed to buy it. Would such a sword really be dismissed by a native Omani as "bazaar rubbish"?.
To me, it looks very desirable, at the right price, of course.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

Hello Chaps!

Heres a little montage of pictures to illustrate my view of Omani sword type 4... The straight bladed fighting Kattara.

First we have Mr. Tipu Tip. {As the Colonial English called him for a laugh...} Whos Real name was Hamed bin Mohammed.

Then we have Mr. Tiippy with A couple of other Arabs & Some Brit Colonial Officer type. Notice how they all wear fighting Swords, 2 Omani Shamsir & a type 4, Stiff bladed fighting Kattara.

Then this fascinating Bunch of Baluchi cutthroats employed by the Omanis as the Baluchis made good soldiers & Guards. Note straight bladed Saif helb by middle chap amongst all the shamshirs.

I suspect Ibrahim will say this bloke was waiting for the band to arrive so they could all have a dance, But personaly I reckon , hes a cold stome killer with a weapon... hes not waiting for top of the pops to start!

Then a number of Omani. Zanzibari rulers are presented to show the importance of wearing a combat worthy sword as a ruler.

They weren't going to wave them in the air & have a sing song! They were weapons carried to show there power... as were Tippy toes... Who carried both straight & curved kattara as illustrated above.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Ibrahim,
I am a little confused here. Are you saying the sword hilt illustrated in post#68 on the now closed "Forts and cannons..." thread is a post 1970 muttrah souk rehilt on a german\ethiopian blade for the tourist trade? I can see it is a modern hilt but it's quality seems to me suggest a very superior tourist was needed to buy it. Would such a sword really be dismissed by a native Omani as "bazaar rubbish"?.
To me, it looks very desirable, at the right price, of course.
Regards
Richard

No where did I say that? ... Its a hilt from one of the Museums. Its a hilt by a modern master probably 15 years old only. Regards, Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[Sancar]

Ibrahim, I'd like to adsk about the last photo with two swords in your last post. Are they also "dancing swords"? Are the form of hilts and blades of those swords specific only to the dancing swords? Because I remember seeing the exact same shaped sword in Istanbul Military Museum. It was a Memlük sword; belonged to a Memlük sultan if I remember correctly and it was definitely for battle.

I'm desperately searching for photos right now. But I am 100% positive it was very very similar to the swords in your photo.