The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

...because when we actually had a native Sri Lankan that was steeped in the culture and history of ancient Sri Lankan weaponry and actually had his feet on the ground in that country you did nothing but argue his very informative posts until he threw up his hands and left the conversation. Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts....Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts. :)

... Which certainly have a value ratio far greater than countless perorations which, although containing some peripheral (but not intrinsic) info, make us ponder on their immense space occupied in the archives versus their juice, after squeezing them.
It is obvious that despite Jim’s industrious initiative to transfer this theme to a new thread under a multiple (triple) range of attributions, the nuclear point remains the same: the origin, date and outer influences in the Kastane. However it is not the hammering on the same nail head, time and time without count, that will bring light to the subject. No one forgets that certain approaches were repeated a zillion times … sometimes with the very same wording.
Resuming that, taking in consideration the recurrent (massacred) pre and post Portuguese ‘key’ to the matter ...
It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you so much for adding this most pertinent example which reflects the kind of diffusion seen with these clearly Sinhalese influenced hilts, and most important showing the Portuguese perspective.
Thank you as well for adding your perspective on the 'origins of the kasthane dilemma', which seems of course to correspond pretty much with the views expressed already.

Actually the reason I started this thread was because of the outcry on the other thread concerning the emphasis on the kasthane in a thread whose title indicated Sinhalese swords, including the kasthane. There it was claimed that the thread was being derailed by emphasis on the kasthane, remarkable since it followed the topic in the title. Just the same, I thought a more deliberately titled thread would allow focused discussion on the kastane without such consternation.

Now we have a derailment toward the perils and worth of the Wikipedia online source! It seems to me that any source of material used in research is useful but with the caveat that the material must be considered along with corroborating material as well.
It seems that here the issue has become that the source material cited by Ibrahiim from Wikipedia is considered questionably because he has contributed to its content. I will say here that I often use Wikipedia to augment and add to data I use to write along with my own notes and other resources. In most cases it has proven quite reliable although in many cases politically charged material is somewhat questionable.

It should probably have been reiterated that he had added to the Wikipedia material he cited, but I honestly thought he had mentioned that before.

Whatever the case, I would like to see this thread return to the subject matter and forego this unnecessary point of contention.

Fernando, again, wonderful example!!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

Salaams Fernando, Thank you for your post which includes the fascinating picture from your library of the Kastane influenced sword. I assume this example to have been a back fed influence as the Portuguese were withdrawing from the Indian Ocean? It is an early example of a Kastane influenced hilt. Very interesting.

Whilst you state that the origin of the hilt cannot be questioned; that is certainly not how it was originally on this or any other thread.. and since the same sort of decoration appeared on gunpowder weapons of the combined workshops of Portuguese and Sri Lankan craftsmen I am amazed at your revelation... and since you supplied the artwork showing the similar decoration ..even more amazing. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=3&pp=30 at #66

Whilst the Portuguese were the first Europeans to "mix cultures" with the Sri Lankans they were not the first culture ... You omit the Moors..Not only were they hundreds of years before the Portuguese but they were the Mercantile Marine... of Sri Lanka. It is to them that the transition of basic blade form may be attributed. Personally I don't think the Quillons are solely attributable (many people do and that is accepted) but viewing the Vajra I see that as being perhaps the dominant influence.

To what period do you place the appearance of a brass blade?... It is known that cheap non Sri Lankan blades appeared in brass as belly dancer items often with a reversed hilt... in the 19th C.

You place Portugal very highly in the definitions concerning the Kastane yet only at post 80 have you entered your input, though, it is well recieved.... but by-the-way in terms of repetition was not your only other post here on the Mudaliers essentially repetition of a previous one ... by myself; see #2. What I mean is that in generating the discussion and in threads that are very long...understandably repetition happens...though they are not designed towards any individual but in bringing the hundreds of other interested members into focus and updated with the subject.

It was partly because of this that we have now this separate thread on Kastane. Hugely successful !!....leaving the older thread to be developed along the lines of other Sri Lankan weapons. The other support thread on VOC is of course another excellent main artery thread concerning Sri Lanka.

Those few members who were so vociferous in condemning the Kastanes virtually solo appearance on the old thread will no doubt be building up that thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=10&pp=30, no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

I must say that I had decided to stay away from the thread; not due to being unable to stand argument as some might suggest-but as it no longer seems objective about the study that for me is one of profound personal interest. same things repeat over and over with minor contortions while (sadly) quickly forgetting all the information that has been Included in the previous thread where this discussion initiated. I did feel quite sad as among the noise there was also some very important material being shared and raised and I must say I did learn a lot being part of it.

The reason I am writing this note is to at least provide a re-cap of points that were presented in the other thread that seem to be getting forgotten and to at least try in some way to counter some of the mis-information that seem to be taking root within the thread. being from the country of origin of the Kasthana - It is sometimes difficult not to be amused by some of the things that continue being said (despite errors being pointed out). Many theories about Sinhala arts, crafts, culture and history portrayed seem alien and quite new to me having been a student of Sinhala Art history all my life. - it’s quite an eye opener how much mis-information; just starts as a wild guesses becomes realities and can take root through the internet. (may be it is my disadvantage to be from Sri Lanka - otherwise may be I would have enjoyed the fantasies more freely.)

As David already very correctly pointed out- In Sri Lanka neither Lion, Makara nor Serapendiya are ever considered deities or gods in any form; they are depicted as no more than mere decorative “BEAST” forms (though auspicious- like the lotus or conch-shell). They are used as Icons; Lion representing Sinhala race, Makara as a symbol of protection and regeneration. etc. etc.

The only goddess or deities represented on Kasthana seem to be images that may be Sri-Devi/Luxmi, or Patthini devi depicted sometimes on the outer side of the hand guard and/or on the langet. These on occasion may be only figures of “Nari-latha” or tree nymphs. It is a significant area of study to identify the mostly female deities present on a weapon instead of a warrior gods such as karthikeiya or Kali.

Forum still does not seem to recognize the sources I provided that in a Sri Lankan/ Sinhala historic context clearly establish the Kasthana Sword to mid 16th century. which at least in a local context is backed by examples that have good provenance and supported by strong literary evidence. There is solid local evidence to prove that the Kasthane sword in its proper form and name existed at least in mid 16th century if not earlier. . (please check earlier thread for reference) I do understand that the forum members are at a loss when it comes to reading original historic sources written in Sinhala. but the reality is that they do exist. the post 14th century era saw the emergence of a long series of books written as “Hatan Kavya” (war poems) which give significant details of battles and warriors and arms used.

If the sword (and the name Kasthana) was in existence in the early to mid 16th century and associated well with King Rajasinhe I. it is clear that the origin of the weapon clearly and significantly pre-date the Kandyan kingdom and its workshops; and would have its origin more in the Sithawaka and/or Kotte kingdoms- post the transfer of the capital to Kandy the workshops there would have continued production of the swords. but it would not have originated in “Kandyan workshops” which is a misnomer. The design trends associated with the early (more refined) form of Kasthana can be associated with art trends of even the Dambadeni or Gampola Kingdoms which predate even the Kotte Sithawaka era.

The Sinhala crafts and technology was influenced by more than the 3 European invaders and the moors, The country was visited 3 times by the Navy of Cheng ho (Zheng He) shortly before the arrival of the Portuguese; and there was prolific trade, diplomatic, religious and cultural ties to Thailand to Burma and most of East Asia and even up to China. Mainland India both Northern and Southern continued to be in strong contact throughout time. large Sinhala trade ships are documented sailing to Chinese ports and even to Roman courts more than a millennia before. the concept that the moors were the “mercantile marine” of the sinhales is in error though they did carry out trade in Sinhala ports during the 15th century and supported the Sinhales in some battles as the Portuguese was a direct threat to their trade. The Sinhales craftsmen were good at adapting foreign technology encountered often giving them a local twist. The location of the country at the southernmost tip of the Indian sub-continent necessitated any ships plying the coasts of South Asia would use it as a trade hub. The 14th century text “Kandauru siritha” list many types of foreign swords used by the kings army including swords listed as Pandi, Wadiga, Jaina, Malaya, Madura, Thelangu, Java, Vanga, Ayodhya swords. A total of 32 types of swords are listed including “Wak kadu” or curved swords which may have been the predecessor of the Kasthana type blade- which if true would date the type of blades significantly before the Portuguese encounter.

The craft based “cast” system was in existence in Sri Lanka till the end of the Kandyan Kingdom in 1815. The system was broken down only under the British rule.

The Early Kasthana was possibly designed with a lot of thought and reason for each of its components. The traditional systems carry rather firm disciplines in proportions and use of its elements. The texts like the “Vaijayantha-thanthra” are examples. which set guidelines for the length and breadth of blades and the types of decoration and iconographies to be followed. most of the sword lore and smiting techniques became extinct under the extreme repression of the British raj. The Brits took over the country using intrigue not the force of arms in which they repeatedly failed as long as the Sinhala crown lasted. so the Brits knew the need to suppress anything that was even connected to martial traditions in the Sinhales. Orders were given to shoot at anyone practicing “Angam” and all arms and armor related crafts perished in the post 1815 era.

Recently I was rather saddened to see a small “ola leaf” technical manual on ancient sword making being dismantled and sold piecemeal page by page to gullible tourists in an antique shop the South of the country purporting to be “Lord Buddha’s own handwriting”. But the bit that I saw remaining indicate firm guidelines set in construction of the blades.

Though I would not feel confident in identifying the inspiration for the Kasthana design- Based on the way a TRADITIONAL kasthana is constructed and put together I believe that the use of the quillons and the langet is used mainly to strengthen the base of the sword, provide a good seat on the scabbards and also to deflect a sliding cut away from the hand. not for the purpose of holding and locking enemy blades. The association of tibetan vajra with kasthana is purely artificial in a Sinhala context- as I pointed out before the Mahayana/Vajrayana buddhist traditions to which vajra symbolism belonged was extinct or only vestigially present in Sri Lanka the time in question. The predominant Theravada Buddhist traditions give no significance to it. the quillon shape is quite regular within the framework of Sinhala motifs without a need to associate it with the Vajra

Ibrahim I think your classification of Kasthana to include characters of all degenerate deviant sub-species counters the identification of proper kasthana swords- the true Kasthana carries a single edged blade that is curved, The quillons are always 4 and the primary animal heads on quillons, guard and hilt is 6 (or more- never less). There is a firm order and tradition of composition of animal head types and accessory figures and iconography on hilt and quillons. but I shall refrain on commenting further on this as I have given sufficient level of my comments on that topic elsewhere in the earlier thread but the issue within this forum stays stubbornly muddled.

Ibrahim I am not sure how these modern illustrations of Hindu gods become useful in the purpose of the thread. if needed look for period specific reference that may have more value here.

Napoleon- it is best to visit the earlier thread which carried some good illustrations of Kasthana, There are a modest amount of direct historic evidence available within a Sri Lankan archaeological/ historic records. If you would look at my posts I have included some references to heirloom swords still remaining with the original families they were gifted to by Kings which give good provenance as some still even carry gift deeds, flags and other items presented along with the kasthana to the chieftains who excelled in battle. I am also very interested in the typological chronology of the kasthana which seem quite clear path of evolution from the earliest (most refined) to late (of more valuable material but weak craftsmanship and design). a lot of modern poor quality replica’s also float around including brass bladed items. previously I made a possible reference to a source that could well stand as an earlier example of a Kasthana timeline based on the evolution of design elements.

I just hope the forum stay objective and selective in acceptance of the material provided- unless the thread may do more harm to the study of the Kasthana than good.

p.s. Ibrahim thank you for the private message to me. I was any way thinking of posting this.

Regards prasanna

[David]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

I just hope the forum stay objective and selective in acceptance of the material provided- unless the thread may do more harm to the study of the Kasthana than good.

Thanks you so much for returning to this subject once more Prasanna to impart your insights.
Jim seems to think that i am trying to derail this discussion and that i have brought up "unnecessary point(s) of contention". Nothing could be further from the truth. I am simply trying to re-track the train and correct its course as there has been so much misdirection, half-truths and straight out incorrect info somehow portrayed as being correct knowledge reached by some imaginary "consensus" of the members participating here. To be clear, writing the most amount of words on a subject does not create a "consensus". Even if it did, a consensus of this group on any particular idea is useless if in fact it is historically incorrect.
Prasanna, i do hope you stick around this conversation just a little bit longer. I realize that it might feel like you are beating your head against a stone wall at times, but do understand that some of us value the direct cultural input you provide into these questions and are not swayed by the seeming endless flow white noise that attempts to obscure it.

[Jim McDougall]

Prasanna, thank you so much for rejoining us here!!! and especially for your outstanding and valuable summary of most important data and perspectives reflecting your command of Sri Lankan history as well as that of the weaponry including the kasthane. Your distinct advantage in this knowledge is of course that you not only are Sri Lankan, but have tenaciously studied the history which is your own ancestry and legacy, and I admire that very much.
I can well understand your previous reluctance to participate as certain errors and misperceptions occurred in degree in our discussions here and on other threads, as these can be frustrating of course for someone as well versed as you are in the history you have devoted a lifetime to. With that I would also note that I hope you will stay with us here, and ask for your patience as we look into learning more on the history of these fascinating swords.

David, I would like to note that while your intent may have been to clarify various aspects of the discussion at hand, it may have been more advantageous to address key talking points specifically and offering alternative views as you did with the term 'deity'. In spending quite some time going through a number of sources to learn more on this definition (as I admit to not clearly understanding it myself prior to this), I found that the term itself has remarkably wide scope. Primarily of course its use seems to refer to supernatural, immortal beings thought to be sacred, holy or even divine. In extremely subjective studies of things mythical, metaphysical and theosophical there are naturally profoundly wide views, so equally wide parlance in various context may be understandable.

The point is, rather than being objective in addressing the issue, the demeanor of your approach seemed dismissive with regard to Ibrahiims participation in the compilation of the Wikipedia entry noted. Obviously the presentation could have been better qualified in being cited, but still the accusatory comment was counterproductive and the subsequent dialogue directed to the values and issues with Wikipedia was in effect 'derailing' in my opinion. Aside from that I appreciate your concerns over the integrity of the discussions and always welcome objective and constructive participation focused on the subject matter at hand.

[David]

Jim, the definition of the word "deity" is pretty cut and dry, for any particular cultural application.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deity
The importance of understanding the difference between deities and mere mythical creatures and what purposes they serve in the culture at hand is of great importance if there is to be any understanding of the weapons under consideration here.
A discussion of the merits of Wikipedia entries is indeed pertinent as well. I also use Wikipedia quite often for quick references when seeking information, but am wary enough to take such info with a grain of salt. It is NOT a credible source for academic study, period. This isn't to say that it isn't useful. As i mentioned before, some entries are better researched with a multitude of references and footnotes. Others, like the kastane entry not so much. What i objected to in Ibrahiim's last posting of his wikipedia entry was that it was being presented as a "culminating note…unveiled by Wikepedia the famous on line encyclopedia" firstly, without full disclosure that it is indeed of his own hand and opinion (sorry, his previous admission to this is buried in a ten page thread that has long since fallen off the main page and does indeed need restating for full transparency) and it is full of errors and speculation. Ibrahiim responds to my questioning with the following:
"I add that since my involvement as a contributor on Forum to this subject that the Wikepedia entry has been considerably and accurately updated with the latest current information researched by me. It stands therefor as a pinnacle of finely tuned detail in parallel with the latest doctrine on the subject...
Surely you would be delighted with that..from the Forum viewpoint?"
No, Ibrahiim, i am not delighted from the "Forum viewpoint". What is written in the wiki article is not "a pinnacle of finely tuned detail in parallel with the latest doctrine on the subject…", it is merely your opinion and some of it is incorrect. It is not the culminated consensus point of view that has come as the fruit of these forum thread discussions on the subject so why should it please me from the Forum viewpoint?
Jim, we will probably, as usual, have to agree to disagree on these points, but i call it like i see it and will continue to do so. It is not an attempt to be dismissive or counterproductive, but rather to keep a sense of transparency and accountability in these threads and allow those with other opinions the room to speak them rather than be carried away by the avalanche of words that seem to dominate the discussion most of the time. If you continue to disregard the number of forum members who have been turned away from this discussion because of this you do so at your own peril of researching a complex subject with a minimum of forum input.

[Rick]

As a long time member I feel I must comment:
Both Kastane threads, were they to be considered in corporeal form would,
IMO, be called morbidly obese .
I believe that the essence has become lost within the folds of 'fat' surrounding the subject under discussion; it becomes obvious that the subject here is, and will remain solely about the kastane .

Gentlemen, I think theis subject has been about laid to rest; I don't believe that I am the only member that feels this way .
I lack the necessary filter and patience to continue to swim in these waters . I expect so do many others of us here on the sidelines .

I also fear for our credibility .

[Jim McDougall]

I guess we have pretty well covered the term 'deity' at this point, and yes, that is yet another dictionary definition. However, as is often the case with words, they can often end up with varying interpretation in parlance with colloquial or contextual usage .
For example, one reference notes, "..all the gods have some animals and birds as their vahana or vehicle, and in the process of time these creatures have become a great object of Hindu veneration".("Sacred Hindu Symbols" Abhinav Publications , 2001). This reference goes on to note, "..another mythological animal DEITY is makara, the sea monster who is the vahana of the Vedic god Varuna". Another reference I came across passim, noted the makara as an elephant headed sea beast is considered to be a benevolent sea DEITY.
The three principal animal deities are described in another reference on Hindu mythology as Ganesha, Garuda, and Hanuman. While this would by implication seem to exclude the makara, it does seem that the term has rather wide latitude. In cases such as metaphysical, mythological and other philosophical and theosophical studies it would seem far less than 'cut and dry'.
One of the best references, in my opinion, for understanding matters of perception in the application of these kinds of mythical figures and decoration on many of these weapons is found in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood, 2004, p.130). Dr.Elgood notes, "...since the power of the gods is held to be infinitely greater than than that of man, it follows that their weapons are replete with the supernatural qualities of their owners.They are frequently captured or gifted, thereby transferring potency from one deity to another".
Further, "...lions are symbols of royalty and Vishnu, the Buddha and the ain saviours all sit on lion thrones (Simhasana) while the goddess Durga has a lion as her vehicle".

It would seem that in these views concerning deities that in some cases the lion is indeed representative of supremacy, and in varying circumstances that it may represent a 'vehicle' much as the makara. Since 'deities' are defined as supernatural beings, thought of as divine or sacred and that some are supreme while others are of different ranks...might this not suggest that the term deity could be perceived comprehensively to include these mythical creatures?

Obviously, though Sri Lanka may have different perceptions of these facets of Hindu mythology and the terminology used, these are my own views set forth here as I understand them. In other references I have seen, it is noted that in some faiths it is considered blasphemous to imagine or depict a deity as having a concrete form.
Perhaps this might account for the seemingly stylized interpretations of these mythical creatures and why those of us virtually in layman status find it so difficult to identify them, let alone agree on what to call them or how to term them.

These are the kinds of questions we hope to discover answers for, and to better understand these swords and their history. Since the term 'deity' has become deemed of importance at this point, then we should address it accordingly and return to the kasthane.

I will also point out that my 'industrious' venture here to allow unimpeded focus on the kasthane specifically I believe has been most useful, and that in many cases discourses of this volume often require reiteration....often readers don't read the previous post, let alone the considerable text of the thread. Case in point is Ibrahiims not mentioning his Wikipedia contribution which was 'buried' in previous text. Therefore in many cases it becomes necessary to reestablish material again, even if it seems repetitive for some readers.

[fernando]

ආයුබෝවන් Prasanna

No one will doubt that this authentic treatise on the Kasthana is more than enlightening in the most varied points ... speaking by my humble self .
If i am not insisting too much on the same point, i would dare to ask you objectively whether outer influence in the Kasthana form is to be excluded. By placing the Kastana in the mid XVI century we may infer that it was born whilst the Portuguese stayed in the Island; the same Portuguese that a century later mentioned in chronicles various Sinhala weapons (Calachurro and all) but not the Kasthana. Maybe this is due to such sword not being a field weapon, its involvement in bellic narrations didn't occur. I didn't however give up searching this theme in Portuguese history of the period, as i find it hard to beleive that the Kasthana, or the equivalent term attributed by Portuguese, is not mentioned here or there.
Concerning quality of these swords, it is easy to understand that it degenerated within time, specialy attending to the fact that its adornment purposes didn't need their martial skills to prevail in use.
But knowing less than nothing about the subject, i fail to discern how modern examples with blades made of brass are. In page 57 of the book above mentioned, i face the picture of two Kasthanas; one in chiseled gold and silver and rubies in the beast eyes and another with a brass blade and the hilt (and scabbard?) made of turtle.
The pictures are in black and white and not of the best quality. But judging by the knowledge of the owner, i wouldn't imagine this brass example having been used just the other day in belly dance ... although for lack of knowledge i will not reject the idea.


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

I must say that I had decided to stay away from the thread; not due to being unable to stand argument as some might suggest-but as it no longer seems objective about the study that for me is one of profound personal interest. same things repeat over and over with minor contortions while (sadly) quickly forgetting all the information that has been Included in the previous thread where this discussion initiated. I did feel quite sad as among the noise there was also some very important material being shared and raised and I must say I did learn a lot being part of it.

The reason I am writing this note is to at least provide a re-cap of points that were presented in the other thread that seem to be getting forgotten and to at least try in some way to counter some of the mis-information that seem to be taking root within the thread. being from the country of origin of the Kasthana - It is sometimes difficult not to be amused by some of the things that continue being said (despite errors being pointed out). Many theories about Sinhala arts, crafts, culture and history portrayed seem alien and quite new to me having been a student of Sinhala Art history all my life. - it’s quite an eye opener how much mis-information; just starts as a wild guesses becomes realities and can take root through the internet. (may be it is my disadvantage to be from Sri Lanka - otherwise may be I would have enjoyed the fantasies more freely.)

As David already very correctly pointed out- In Sri Lanka neither Lion, Makara nor Serapendiya are ever considered deities or gods in any form; they are depicted as no more than mere decorative “BEAST” forms (though auspicious- like the lotus or conch-shell). They are used as Icons; Lion representing Sinhala race, Makara as a symbol of protection and regeneration. etc. etc.

The only goddess or deities represented on Kasthana seem to be images that may be Sri-Devi/Luxmi, or Patthini devi depicted sometimes on the outer side of the hand guard and/or on the langet. These on occasion may be only figures of “Nari-latha” or tree nymphs. It is a significant area of study to identify the mostly female deities present on a weapon instead of a warrior gods such as karthikeiya or Kali.

Forum still does not seem to recognize the sources I provided that in a Sri Lankan/ Sinhala historic context clearly establish the Kasthana Sword to mid 16th century. which at least in a local context is backed by examples that have good provenance and supported by strong literary evidence. There is solid local evidence to prove that the Kasthane sword in its proper form and name existed at least in mid 16th century if not earlier. . (please check earlier thread for reference) I do understand that the forum members are at a loss when it comes to reading original historic sources written in Sinhala. but the reality is that they do exist. the post 14th century era saw the emergence of a long series of books written as “Hatan Kavya” (war poems) which give significant details of battles and warriors and arms used.

If the sword (and the name Kasthana) was in existence in the early to mid 16th century and associated well with King Rajasinhe I. it is clear that the origin of the weapon clearly and significantly pre-date the Kandyan kingdom and its workshops; and would have its origin more in the Sithawaka and/or Kotte kingdoms- post the transfer of the capital to Kandy the workshops there would have continued production of the swords. but it would not have originated in “Kandyan workshops” which is a misnomer. The design trends associated with the early (more refined) form of Kasthana can be associated with art trends of even the Dambadeni or Gampola Kingdoms which predate even the Kotte Sithawaka era.

The Sinhala crafts and technology was influenced by more than the 3 European invaders and the moors, The country was visited 3 times by the Navy of Cheng ho (Zheng He) shortly before the arrival of the Portuguese; and there was prolific trade, diplomatic, religious and cultural ties to Thailand to Burma and most of East Asia and even up to China. Mainland India both Northern and Southern continued to be in strong contact throughout time. large Sinhala trade ships are documented sailing to Chinese ports and even to Roman courts more than a millennia before. the concept that the moors were the “mercantile marine” of the sinhales is in error though they did carry out trade in Sinhala ports during the 15th century and supported the Sinhales in some battles as the Portuguese was a direct threat to their trade. The Sinhales craftsmen were good at adapting foreign technology encountered often giving them a local twist. The location of the country at the southernmost tip of the Indian sub-continent necessitated any ships plying the coasts of South Asia would use it as a trade hub. The 14th century text “Kandauru siritha” list many types of foreign swords used by the kings army including swords listed as Pandi, Wadiga, Jaina, Malaya, Madura, Thelangu, Java, Vanga, Ayodhya swords. A total of 32 types of swords are listed including “Wak kadu” or curved swords which may have been the predecessor of the Kasthana type blade- which if true would date the type of blades significantly before the Portuguese encounter.

The craft based “cast” system was in existence in Sri Lanka till the end of the Kandyan Kingdom in 1815. The system was broken down only under the British rule.

The Early Kasthana was possibly designed with a lot of thought and reason for each of its components. The traditional systems carry rather firm disciplines in proportions and use of its elements. The texts like the “Vaijayantha-thanthra” are examples. which set guidelines for the length and breadth of blades and the types of decoration and iconographies to be followed. most of the sword lore and smiting techniques became extinct under the extreme repression of the British raj. The Brits took over the country using intrigue not the force of arms in which they repeatedly failed as long as the Sinhala crown lasted. so the Brits knew the need to suppress anything that was even connected to martial traditions in the Sinhales. Orders were given to shoot at anyone practicing “Angam” and all arms and armor related crafts perished in the post 1815 era.

Recently I was rather saddened to see a small “ola leaf” technical manual on ancient sword making being dismantled and sold piecemeal page by page to gullible tourists in an antique shop the South of the country purporting to be “Lord Buddha’s own handwriting”. But the bit that I saw remaining indicate firm guidelines set in construction of the blades.

Though I would not feel confident in identifying the inspiration for the Kasthana design- Based on the way a TRADITIONAL kasthana is constructed and put together I believe that the use of the quillons and the langet is used mainly to strengthen the base of the sword, provide a good seat on the scabbards and also to deflect a sliding cut away from the hand. not for the purpose of holding and locking enemy blades. The association of tibetan vajra with kasthana is purely artificial in a Sinhala context- as I pointed out before the Mahayana/Vajrayana buddhist traditions to which vajra symbolism belonged was extinct or only vestigially present in Sri Lanka the time in question. The predominant Theravada Buddhist traditions give no significance to it. the quillon shape is quite regular within the framework of Sinhala motifs without a need to associate it with the Vajra

Ibrahim I think your classification of Kasthana to include characters of all degenerate deviant sub-species counters the identification of proper kasthana swords- the true Kasthana carries a single edged blade that is curved, The quillons are always 4 and the primary animal heads on quillons, guard and hilt is 6 (or more- never less). There is a firm order and tradition of composition of animal head types and accessory figures and iconography on hilt and quillons. but I shall refrain on commenting further on this as I have given sufficient level of my comments on that topic elsewhere in the earlier thread but the issue within this forum stays stubbornly muddled.

Ibrahim I am not sure how these modern illustrations of Hindu gods become useful in the purpose of the thread. if needed look for period specific reference that may have more value here.

Napoleon- it is best to visit the earlier thread which carried some good illustrations of Kasthana, There are a modest amount of direct historic evidence available within a Sri Lankan archaeological/ historic records. If you would look at my posts I have included some references to heirloom swords still remaining with the original families they were gifted to by Kings which give good provenance as some still even carry gift deeds, flags and other items presented along with the kasthana to the chieftains who excelled in battle. I am also very interested in the typological chronology of the kasthana which seem quite clear path of evolution from the earliest (most refined) to late (of more valuable material but weak craftsmanship and design). a lot of modern poor quality replica’s also float around including brass bladed items. previously I made a possible reference to a source that could well stand as an earlier example of a Kasthana timeline based on the evolution of design elements.

I just hope the forum stay objective and selective in acceptance of the material provided- unless the thread may do more harm to the study of the Kasthana than good.

p.s. Ibrahim thank you for the private message to me. I was any way thinking of posting this.

Regards prasanna

Salaams Prasanna ~ Thank you for your note about my PM and your early response which is very highly regarded. Not being Srl Lankan in this regard I do apologise for the indelicate descriptions involving the famous and fabulous Icons surrounding the very convoluted story so far on the Kastane. From an outsiders viewpoint the best words to describe the designs seemed to be Deity..This is not simply an arrived at conclusion but appears in many references which we understand may have got it slightly off frequency...when perhaps to satisfy the equation Icon would be a better word, however, to the researcher there was no reason to be concerned since they both mean the same ... to them. I hope no offence has been made in this regard.

I was actually about to reitterate what you had pointed out regarding the Home Grown nature of The Kastane illustrating your post of the earlier thread showing the stone figure "Hanguranketha" with a sword clearly of similar Quillon style at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=9&pp=30 and more or less ruling out any foreign influence altogether... though in fact the influence clearly flowed the other way much later than the 16th C. onto European Dogheads and in fact earlier referring to the Benin weapon(Hybrid) and to some extent the Popham Armour(Courtsword) and even the Sendai item ..

I hope you agree that though this has been a huge and difficult task especially as the research is so difficult and in particular from the foreigners viewpoint..and not being versed so well in Buddhism nor Hinduism that what we actually have achieved ...stormy at times ... ....is not a bad effort since now practically all the detail that is currently available rests on these pages. I make no apology for repetition or what some describe as "fat" since it is easy to jab remarks at what has been a difficult struggle to say the least. I believe that those who have fallen by the wayside did so because they couldnt stand the pace...or just were unable to get involved..maybe they can join later. The ink is free ! and they are always welcome.

In your other post in which you state Quote
"I think it is clear that the kasthane origin is Sinhala. but there are many un-answered questions remain and it is also clear that it did draw inspiration from many foreign sources as well. one of the questions that I am intrigued by is that the changeover of the Sinhala fighters from the dominance of double edged long swords of the previous era- that seem quite similar to the arms of the Portuguese roughly at the time of their arrival and shifting to the Kasthana". Unquote. This is a fascinating subject and I hope you can advise us further.

Nice to see your post and thank you for the excellent and constructive content... Great Country, Great People, Great Sword !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

…when perhaps to satisfy the equation Icon would be a better word, however, to the researcher there was no reason to be concerned since they both mean the same ... to them.

They most certainly do not…not to researchers or anyone for that matter.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

They most certainly do not…not to researchers or anyone for that matter.

Salaams David. I think the matter is properly addressed now dont you? Despite vast references that illustrate the words Deity and note the huge variance in descriptive terms; dragon, snake, eagle, serpent, Makara, beast, gargoyle, Lion, to name a few... does it really actually matter ? The more important weight is concerned with the date and timing of any Sri Lankan adoption of this weapon style ... not whether Europeans transliterate what they see and what the references describe. Deity \ Icon??

Perhaps it would be like flogging a dead horse to continue arguing the point no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David. I think the matter is properly addressed now dont you? Despite vast references that illustrate the words Deity and note the huge variance in descriptive terms; dragon, snake, eagle, serpent, Makara, beast, gargoyle, Lion, to name a few... does it really actually matter ? The more important weight is concerned with the date and timing of any Sri Lankan adoption of this weapon style ... not whether Europeans transliterate what they see and what the references describe. Deity \ Icon??

Perhaps it would be like flogging a dead horse to continue arguing the point no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well Ibrahiim, you claim to want to understand the kastane. Any ethnographic weapon cannot be properly understood without a clear understanding of the culture that spawned it or that culture's intent in its design. Deities are gods and goddess, supreme beings that are worshipped by the people that attend to that culture. An "Icon" if you choose to insist on that term, when not used in its original sense of a painting of Jesus Christ, can be viewed as "a person or thing regarded as a representative symbol of something." If the Sinhalese people were placing their gods and goddess on these hilts it would have a certain meaning and power to it. That they chose the iconic lion, a symbol of the Sinhalese people, to place on the pommel, conveys a separate purpose, meaning and understanding. To confuse "Deity" with "Icon" or see them as somehow interchangeable terms will only lead to continued confusion on the intent, place and purpose of the kastane within Sinhalese culture. So, you ask "dragon, snake, eagle, serpent, Makara, beast, gargoyle, Lion, to name a few… does it really actually matter?" Come on Ibrahiim, of course it matters.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Which certainly have a value ratio far greater than countless perorations which, although containing some peripheral (but not intrinsic) info, make us ponder on their immense space occupied in the archives versus their juice, after squeezing them.
It is obvious that despite Jim’s industrious initiative to transfer this theme to a new thread under a multiple (triple) range of attributions, the nuclear point remains the same: the origin, date and outer influences in the Kastane. However it is not the hammering on the same nail head, time and time without count, that will bring light to the subject. No one forgets that certain approaches were repeated a zillion times … sometimes with the very same wording.
Resuming that, taking in consideration the recurrent (massacred) pre and post Portuguese ‘key’ to the matter ...
It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

Salaams Fernando, Your post at #80.

I have to point out the nature of this sword which has nothing to do with Sri Lankan weapons since it is the preferred design having a lions head of the kings of such tribes in West Africa ~ Benin and Dahomey regions.

The author of the sword write up and picture(Rainer Daehnhardt) forces the description in such a way as to be Certain that this weapon sailed with the Portuguese to the far flung corners of the Indian Ocean where it is imagined it took on the mantle ...or hilt... of the Kastane...or that it in any way was influenced by that weapon. I would suggest that "It most Certainly did not". See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post220003

I further cast doubt upon the claim that this is a Christian cross. Again the reference above refers. It is more likely to be Voodoo inspired.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Fernando, Your post at #80.

I have to point out the nature of this sword which has nothing to do with Sri Lankan weapons ...

Boa tarde Senhor Balooshi,
Either my alzheimer level is rather intense or this issue has already been approached and, a consensual perspective was established, for i would not resurrect it unless i had some fresh news to produce. I am afraid that, if i tried to remodel old beaten material, just keep the present thead going, i would be, as we say here, raining on the wet. In the other thread where plausibitiy of writers description was at stake we assumed that often true sounding assumptions miss actual veracity, like the case of this specific sword examle, which was ascertained within the hour, if i well remember
So .. let me keep consistent .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Fernando, Thank you very much for your reply. I am so pleased you agree that the offending weapon description has no place in this thread nor in others ... and that since it pollutes the story in several threads with its spurious reference to weapons of West Africa; Benin and Dahomey regions in particular having certainly travelled to the Indian Ocean in Portuguese Battleships...etc etc ..therefor they must be influenced by Kastane (Sinhalese Armoury weapons) that those pages too should be purged of such material. It is nonsense.

I repeat your advice ...Quote"For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of substantial evidence often forms their strong adversary".Unquote.

On the subject of raining in the wet... What new evidence have you supported in this thread ? We have here and in the sister thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...000#post220000 massive support of clear inter regional influence from mainly South India but also inter religious mirroring of architecture concerning the Kastane linked to Budhist and Hindu designs which are not affected by Portuguese constructs nor does it appear to have any link at all with the Nimcha... and by the way the other spurious sword from your author, a Nimcha Sword from Zanzibar, I recall is also wrongly written up with the detail of a Moroccan Nimcha... Should we perhaps not be more careful with our referencing material?

I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

You are absolutely right, Ibrahiim,
I should have restrained my reflex to reply to your post.
But, as the late Rodríguez de la Fuente used to say; man is the only animal that stumbles twice on the same rock .

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?

I would be careful identifying the equilateral cross as being solely "Voodoo geometry" Ibrahiim. (Btw, the more proper term would be Vodun or Vodoun. While Certain diaspora sects in Louisiana use the term, Voodoo carries far to much bad Hollywood movie baggage with it).This symbol is both ancient and prolific and can be found amongst cultures spread all across the globe with various meanings. In many cases it represents a solar symbology, the four directions, the four elements, etc. Depends on the culture. You are correct that in West African cultures such as the Ewe and Fon it represents the crossroads, the meeting of the spirit world and the material. However, the equilateral cross also has a place in Christian iconography as well in many variations. So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

I would be careful identifying the equilateral cross as being solely "Voodoo geometry" Ibrahiim. (Btw, the more proper term would be Vodun or Vodoun. While Certain diaspora sects in Louisiana use the term, Voodoo carries far to much bad Hollywood movie baggage with it).This symbol is both ancient and prolific and can be found amongst cultures spread all across the globe with various meanings. In many cases it represents a solar symbology, the four directions, the four elements, etc. Depends on the culture. You are correct that in West African cultures such as the Ewe and Fon it represents the crossroads, the meeting of the spirit world and the material. However, the equilateral cross also has a place in Christian iconography as well in many variations. So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

Salaams and thank you David for your input which I agree with entirely with the following caveat; The tribal leaders in West Africa very quickly adopted the Crucifix and would appear to have inserted the Cross into their broad leaf shaped swords probably from the Portuguese and as I have just outlined in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002 at #20

I believe this "Religious" geometry would have suggested to them a special extra degree of power over their people ... Your Vodun and Vodoun are correct terminology although I had researched the New Orleans and Haiti cultural aspects and Voodoo seemed linked which I think it is in part and shown by the diagrams at the other thread and came with the slaves from West Africa. Your indication about the cross roads symbolic meaning is particularly welcome and underscores what I have already written.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

...So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

Several Congolese swords are found with such crosses in their quillon discs, David. I hardly see these perforations as symbols originated (different than adopted) by Kongo Africans. Amazingly a scholar (Wanynn 1961,65) even names them as Greek crosses.
The order of Christus, for one, was also present in the Kongo kingdom and had swords in their possession as a sign of status (Schellings 1949, 12).
The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.


.

[fernando]

Kubur, your PM box is full.

[David]

Originally Posted by fernando

Several Congolese swords are found with such crosses in their quillon discs, David. I hardly see these perforations as symbols originated (different than adopted) by Kongo Africans. Amazingly a scholar (Wanynn 1961,65) even names them as Greek crosses.
The order of Christus, for one, was also present in the Kongo kingdom and had swords in their possession as a sign of status (Schellings 1949, 12).
The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.

Fernando, there is certainly no doubt that Christianity made inroads on the African continent early on in the 15th century and that various African cultures did indeed accept it and work Christian iconography into their cultural artifacts. However, i was addressing Ibrahiim's assertions in my post, specifically references to "Voodoo geometry" and his link in his post #159 to images of the Haitian Vodoun vévé for Papa Legba, the Lwa of the crossroads. Vodun is more specific to the Dahomey Kingdom than the Konga Kingdom. While i remarked that the equilateral cross has many pre-Christian occurrences all over the world and is intact a symbol of the the crossroads in parts of African as well as the diaspora, vévé themselves, the practice of drawing these Lwa symbols on the ground with flour for ritual purpose is one that developed in Haiti and other diaspora countries, not Mother Africa herself, so the Legba crossroads symbol Ibrahiim posted has little bearing on this topic. However, in Africa this equilateral cross symbol was in use in pre-Christian days. Once Christianized i am sure that it took on a different meaning an purpose, but wherever one religion supplants another there is often some hold over to previous belief systems and meanings can be a bit fuzzy to interpret. There are also numerous syncretic sects throughout Africa that combine Christianity with traditional African religions. But when i wrote it is "most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation" i was referring to weapons from cultures that were purely African and had not fully converted to Christian ways. Either way i believe it is still difficult to tell the exact intent and purpose of the equilateral cross when it appears on these swords.