VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

[David]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE]
I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism.
I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality.
The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning!
Thank you as well David for your response.

[Maurice]

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

[asomotif]

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by asomotif

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Hi Willem,

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

I was a kind of in a hurry, but if I'm right it was from a donation somewhere in the 20th century..

[Maurice]

Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early!
(From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg).

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

Hello Maurice,

You're making the best of your holidays !

Thank you for sharing these pictures.
Interesting to see a blade with "M" Middelburg marking.

The javanese style pedang with silver scabbard is realy great.

Best regards,
Willem

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.


In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet
In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Maurice

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections.


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Salaams Maurice, Refering back to your post 44 ....I think from this source please see https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-coll...detail/316391/ Sorry I couldnt get a translation...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[midelburgo]

Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137

I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here:

Keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Japanese:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

[Gavin Nugent]

To add to the diversity of regions, I've a simple early old Guom of tradtional form here with a VOC blade too.

Gavin

[JeffS]

Another to add, similar opi to examples in post #55. This blade had deep rust and very corroded, it took a lot of work to remove. Quite the surprise to find the markings. The 1741 date can be read on both sides but the VOC logo with Amsterdam stamp mostly eroded from one side but legible on the other. This is a double edged sword, same three grooves at vase of blade as examples from Tropenmuseum. Sort of a colonial full circle with the Dutch East Indies coin from 1945...