Flyssa with yataghan-like blade

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2013, 07:55 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks for the note on LaCoste, and I do recall you telling me that some years ago on the deterioration on flyssa production after 1850. The continuation of other producers with the understandable variations outside the Iflissa perview makes good sense, and explains many variations as you note.
Thank you for noting that reference on the acquisition of 'first yataghan' etc. My note was from a conversation many years ago rather than hard reference so I would be grateful to update my notes

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 6th November 2013, 09:59 PM

I stumbled across these photos of flyssa recently. One a photo circa 1880 the other a mannequin display in a Paris museum. Thought I'd just add them to this thread.

TVV · 7th November 2013, 12:50 AM

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

Robert · 7th November 2013, 02:31 AM

Hello Emanuel, I've noticed what looks like waves on the cutting edge of the blade (pictured below) where the downward curve seems to start. Can you tell me if this is correct? If it is may I suggest that the reason for the down curve in this might have been caused by the blade being bent at this point by having struck against a solid object. I have seen this before on other long thin bladed swords where someone ( not knowing any better) has tried to cut things like a small tree. Just speculation on my part, but it could explain the strange blade profile.

Iain · 7th November 2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

I agree, these staged photos are not necessarily all that accurate. However the mannequin, from the Army Museum in Paris, seems to be a little more true to life. Having seen a few of their other mannequins which seems quite well done, this one is likely also pretty accurate as well.

CharlesS · 7th November 2013, 02:22 PM

Firstly, a fascinating sword. Congrats. No doubt a take on the flyssa and to find such a unique example complete with its scabbard makes it even more of a gem.

I am particularly interested in the addition of hand guard to your second curved example, even if a relatively feeble looking one, and wonder who/what influenced it. Certainly there would have been many swords about with guards, but the flyssa had been such a fiercely independent form I have to think something made the addition desirable.

Emanuel · 7th November 2013, 04:40 PM

Hi everyone!

Thank you Iain for these pictures. I am attaching some more pictures of Kabyles. The colour one dates from 1843.

The flyssa scabbards have one or two loops carved into the wood, always on the front of the scabbard. The loops, not very wide, allow a narrow sash or a baldric to be passed through. I think it allows the flyssa to be carried both slung over the shoulder or tied into the sash.

Robert, I am now certain that this flyssa was deformed at some point and that the back was originally straight. I see two points of impact with associated deformation of the edge (the waves you see). No idea how this was done, but flyssa blades were generally made of low-carbon steel so soft enough to bend.

Charles I think that curved example with guard is a much later example assembled in a fantastical manner. It deviates completely from Iflissen construction. The guard seems to be an immitation of the guard on the French M1842 bayonet.

Emanuel

6th November 2013, 09:59 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	I stumbled across these photos of flyssa recently. One a photo circa 1880 the other a mannequin display in a Paris museum. Thought I'd just add them to this thread. Attached Images

7th November 2013, 02:31 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Emanuel, I've noticed what looks like waves on the cutting edge of the blade (pictured below) where the downward curve seems to start. Can you tell me if this is correct? If it is may I suggest that the reason for the down curve in this might have been caused by the blade being bent at this point by having struck against a solid object. I have seen this before on other long thin bladed swords where someone ( not knowing any better) has tried to cut things like a small tree. Just speculation on my part, but it could explain the strange blade profile. Attached Images

7th November 2013, 04:40 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi everyone! Thank you Iain for these pictures. I am attaching some more pictures of Kabyles. The colour one dates from 1843. The flyssa scabbards have one or two loops carved into the wood, always on the front of the scabbard. The loops, not very wide, allow a narrow sash or a baldric to be passed through. I think it allows the flyssa to be carried both slung over the shoulder or tied into the sash. Robert, I am now certain that this flyssa was deformed at some point and that the back was originally straight. I see two points of impact with associated deformation of the edge (the waves you see). No idea how this was done, but flyssa blades were generally made of low-carbon steel so soft enough to bend. Charles I think that curved example with guard is a much later example assembled in a fantastical manner. It deviates completely from Iflissen construction. The guard seems to be an immitation of the guard on the French M1842 bayonet. Emanuel Attached Images

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27th August 2013, 07:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	Hi Emanuel, Thanks for the note on LaCoste, and I do recall you telling me that some years ago on the deterioration on flyssa production after 1850. The continuation of other producers with the understandable variations outside the Iflissa perview makes good sense, and explains many variations as you note. Thank you for noting that reference on the acquisition of 'first yataghan' etc. My note was from a conversation many years ago rather than hard reference so I would be grateful to update my notes All the best, Jim

7th November 2013, 12:50 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing. Regards, Teodor

7th November 2013, 02:22 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Firstly, a fascinating sword. Congrats. No doubt a take on the flyssa and to find such a unique example complete with its scabbard makes it even more of a gem. I am particularly interested in the addition of hand guard to your second curved example, even if a relatively feeble looking one, and wonder who/what influenced it. Certainly there would have been many swords about with guards, but the flyssa had been such a fiercely independent form I have to think something made the addition desirable.