A gamble, your opinion?

Jean · 30th July 2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
Regards
Rasjid

Attached is the picture of a probably recent blade with 22Kt? gold kinatah on a brass base. I realized it recently because the kinatah is peeling off at one corner due to the lack of care from myself so I could see the underlying brass base, but the gold coating is quite thick actually. Your comments will be welcome.
Regards

Sajen · 30th July 2012, 05:34 PM

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality!

Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Jean · 30th July 2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality!

Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Rasjid,
I never saw such a kinatah motif before so I suppose that it was created from the imagination of the maker but I find it very decorative. The quality of the kinatah is not excellent but still quite good IMO and the amount of gold is significant.
I agree that I should replace the pendok blewah by a closed one but it needs to be golden colour for matching with the kinatah blade and I did not find a suitable one yet (only bling-bling pieces).
Rasjid, we should not discuss about price or value in this forum, let me just say that I paid the price of a brand new Mercedes Benz for this piece but a miniature one!

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2012, 12:14 AM

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation.

It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold.

It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass.

It must be gold.

It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced.

Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect.

In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

rasjid · 31st July 2012, 01:03 AM

I can't put someone else keris in this forum and discredit them

Yes David, the Keris is sold as old keris but I wont argue about the keris and its depending the buyer if they are prepared to spend and risk their money on it.

How many more out there good keris with old Kinatah work ? I'm talking long before 1900's

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

rasjid

David · 1st August 2012, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age.

rasjid · 2nd August 2012, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age.

Hi David,

Thanks, the Kinatah i believe done probably after 1980's not very recent and definetely not done before 1900's. The execution / made is following the proper way for Kinatah workmanship and higher level of the quality from current maker for the last 10 years.
I'm still watching current Kinatah done these few years and will wait for few more years maybe to commision one

Indonesia has many good artist for Kinatah work and also wood carving. The problem with "all" artist i believe they only gives you the best when they are not under pressure (time frame limit, could be money, etc).

Alan, thank you for the information. One Collector also mentioned to me that Kinatah on the Gandik should follow certain design with the gonjo. Of course, there are not documented anywhere, this information is only coming from his years of collecting old Kinatah keris workmanship and is Limited to what he saw.

Regards

Rasjid

Jussi M. · 1st August 2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

This is an interesting topic. If I may ask, is there remaining knowledge as to what degree does this "set design" has to fall onto? In other words, what forms the parameters of the "set design" - is there a documented pakem of sorts that must be followed or is it more of a custom transformed onto an unspoken rule, something in between or something else?

Thanks,

J.

GIO · 1st August 2012, 06:30 PM

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

David · 1st August 2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

Gio, are you talking about traditional kinatah here or kinatah-like ornamentation?

rasjid · 30th July 2012, 05:55 PM

Hi Jean,

From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made.

If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No.

For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it.

I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here.

Rasjid

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

David · 30th July 2012, 06:43 PM

Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris".
From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?

31st July 2012, 01:03 AM	#5
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Kinatah work I can't put someone else keris in this forum and discredit them Yes David, the Keris is sold as old keris but I wont argue about the keris and its depending the buyer if they are prepared to spend and risk their money on it. How many more out there good keris with old Kinatah work ? I'm talking long before 1900's This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath. Sorry for the low photo quality. rasjid Attached Images Last edited by rasjid; 31st July 2012 at 01:29 AM.

30th July 2012, 05:55 PM	#11
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Jean, From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made. If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No. For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it. I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here. Rasjid [IMG]http://[/IMG] Last edited by rasjid; 30th July 2012 at 06:14 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

30th July 2012, 05:34 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,761	Hello Jean, nice keris of good quality! Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras. Best regards, Detlef

31st July 2012, 12:14 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,217	Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design. It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation. It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold. It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass. It must be gold. It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced. Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect. In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

1st August 2012, 06:30 PM	#9
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 335	It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker. It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

30th July 2012, 06:43 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,289	Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris". From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?