Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

[Jim McDougall]

Great entry Nando, and excellent illustrations!
Actually for me I must confess I often wonder why more collectors/enthusiasts/ historians DONT ask these kinds of questions! and one of the things I truly admire about Mark is that he consistantly does! yay!

I have always been amazed at historic accounts and narratives with accurate details on uniforms being worn, and artillery, guns even down often to calibers etc. but when it comes to a sword mentioned it is either straight or curved. Then there are the misnomers like referring to a large straight backsword as a 'broadsword'; any hanger used aboard a ship becomes a 'cutlass'; and any heavy sheet or metal guard becomes a 'cuphilt. Then there are the flowery adventure or romance narratives using the much fabled 'scimitar' for any sabre used in oriental parlance.

The purpose of this discussion is mostly fact finding in trying to help us navigate through the treacherous waters of romanticized and artistic licence in much of the literature involving weapons used at sea. I always enjoyed for example the wonderful pirate illustrations of Pyle and Wyeth in which much of the appararel is fairly accurate, as are ships details and in some degree most of the firearms.....however, there is one illustration I can think of (of course being set in the period of the 'golden age' end 17th into 18th) where a bandana wearing pirare is brandishing a gleaming 'cup hilt' cutlass. The weapon portrayed is unfortunately a Civil War period brass sheet metal cutlass used by both Union and Confederate forces thus a century and a half later in period.

Likely there are many (too many) who would say, why does it matter? I suppose in the sense of the general effect of the painting of couse it really doesnt, but for many of us who take history extremely seriously...it would be tantamount to Napoleon arriving at Waterloo in a '57 Chevy

I think what Mark is trying to determine is not whether one weapon was more fit than another to be brought aboard a ship....I think we have all agreed that in many, if not most cases, virtually most types of edged weapons were likely aboard vessels at some point or another. Setting aside the obvious instance of captured, trophy or souvenier items we are wondering whether there was a propensity toward a certain type...in this case the cuphilt....being carried aboard vessels, in this case of course Spanish.

Much in the same way English officers carried usually all manner of court, dress and 'hunting' swords or hangers.....the Spanish officers I feel certain wore rapiers of varying types, the most favored by this time in the 17th century being the cuphilt. The precedent for rapiers worn aboard ship by officers was already established much earlier of course, and the one instance I can think of with at least part of a sword was the rapier from the Atocha (1622) which I believe was the work of Alonzo Perez.

Ibrahiim, thank you for joining us on this exploration! Excellent notes on the use of cutlasses by boarding parties and those disc hilt cutlasses were sturdy examples of a type favored from early 19th century well unto it. These types of sheet metal guards were in use I believe in France and Europe even earlier. The shellguard forms of these stout short bladed sabres were in use throughout Europe on both land and sea from late 16th century onward and well suited for seaboard use.
The obvious purpose and goal was to protect the hand which in close quarters combat was ever vulnerable, not only to further enable continued fighting, but for completion of important shipboard functions if hopefully enabled after the events.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be" . I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use.

Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread.

Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service.

Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

[fernando]

Hi Captain,
I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand.
Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt.
However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire.

.

[M ELEY]

Hello Fernando,

Excellent pic of the period with said sword. Its nice to know that there's some artwork out there supporting the connection. I am awaiting the arrival via inter-library loan of several books that might also substantiate the cup-hilt's presence on ships. Again, I don't doubt it nor challenge it, just looking for solid facts when someone asks to say "there is your proof" and be done with it.

This thread was also admittedly part selfish, as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy. Thanks for the post, though.

Mark

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy....

Oh c'mon Mark... what are you waiting for ? don't tell us you will only show us the pictures when you are 85 ?

[M ELEY]

BTW, the sources I'm checking on are-

Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets, N. Wells
A Guide to the Artifacts of Colonial America, I. Hume
Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, Vol 2, K. Deagan

Hopefully, they may shed a little light?

Harold Peterson's 'Arms and Armor in Colonial America:1526-1783' is an excellent resource for weapons and shows both cup-hilts, hangers and smallswords recovered in the colonies. Being that the Jamestown settlement was right on the water, it stands to reason that at this early time period, those same swords found in the colony were undoubtedly carried by those ships on the shore.

[M ELEY]

'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing)

A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine.

His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...