Kattara for comments

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is some shock and awe !!!

Salaams,

The Debate on dating The (New) (FLEXIBLE) Omani Kattara and its origins. Some important dates etc ;

1. The Portuguese did not leave Muscat until they were forced out in 1850. It is impossible, therefor, for bladed weapons to have entered Muscat in the first half i.e. 1600 to 1650.

2. In Europe iron was extremely expensive until a method of smelting was discovered using coke viz;

The iron industry benefited also from other early inventions of the 18th century. Iron was scarce and costly, and production was falling off because England's forests could not supply enough charcoal for smelting the ore. Ironmasters had long been experimenting with coal as a fuel for smelting. Finally the Darby family, after three generations of effort, succeeded with coal that had been transformed into coke. This created a new demand for coal and laid the foundation for the British coal industry.

3. It is unlikely that mass produced blades could have been attempted before 1780 because viz Following the development above ~ The next great steps were taken in the 1780s, when Henry Cort developed the processes of puddling and rolling. Puddling produced nearly pure malleable iron. Hand in hand with the adoption of the new inventions went the rapid development of the factory system of manufacture.

Therefor if the arguement for European Industrial Trade Blades 17th C collapses.

This is on going "hot" research... I also have to report that sword production in Ras Al Khaimah is only recent having interviewed the elders... Perhaps 40 or 50 years only. They are develish clever.. copiers.. though they do make good swords! and they are Omani. They copy all sorts of stamps... but are now written off as "original" manufacturers ~

The new source of original (New) Omani Kattara is Salalah ! and that brings with it the likely involvement of The Yemen and is well placed on the Camel Train framework for supply and distribution.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

Actually we do need to focus on Germany which is where most of the trade blades were from. England has never really done much in exporting blades except for later in the 19th century to colonial regions. Solingen, on the Wupper River is strategically located for its ore. Sweden was noted for cheaper iron exported much later in the 19th century and unsure of why Germany would have brought that in.
It has never been entirely clear about Hungarian blades, and actually it seems many of these were actually from Solingen or Styria, though there were a few makers, certainly insufficient for export. It does seem that in Arabia the 'Magyar' blades were much favored, but via Syria . These were sabre blades, not broadswords as in most Omani kattara. The larger part of the curved sabre blades came in the 19th century with Caucasian and other European imports.

I think the kattara was far from landlocked as far as the new form. These are well known in Zanzibar as well as well into Africa;s trade networks. It is tempting to associate the cylindrical guard Manding sabres of Mali as well as thed Maasai seme' of Kenya, which may have some degree of influence via Muscat merchants. The 'old' form seems to have remained in place in Omans interior regions contemporary with the new forms on the coast.

The markings phenomenon to me seems very much in line with the blade makers in Sudan where 'Kasallawi' makers produced kaskaras from the 1960s to present. The copied markings are similar but usually distinguishable from old ones by the blade context.

The Wilkinson blades were indeed produced for Abyssinia in the latter 19th century and most notably 1930s. Germany also produced blades for this market. Many of these blades ended up in Yemen where they were remounted in San'a.

We are focused on commercial and trade aspects, nothing to do with religion, so lets keep it that way OK .

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually we do need to focus on Germany which is where most of the trade blades were from. England has never really done much in exporting blades except for later in the 19th century to colonial regions. Solingen, on the Wupper River is strategically located for its ore. Sweden was noted for cheaper iron exported much later in the 19th century and unsure of why Germany would have brought that in.
It has never been entirely clear about Hungarian blades, and actually it seems many of these were actually from Solingen or Styria, though there were a few makers, certainly insufficient for export. It does seem that in Arabia the 'Magyar' blades were much favored, but via Syria . These were sabre blades, not broadswords as in most Omani kattara. The larger part of the curved sabre blades came in the 19th century with Caucasian and other European imports.

I think the kattara was far from landlocked as far as the new form. These are well known in Zanzibar as well as well into Africa;s trade networks. It is tempting to associate the cylindrical guard Manding sabres of Mali as well as thed Maasai seme' of Kenya, which may have some degree of influence via Muscat merchants. The 'old' form seems to have remained in place in Omans interior regions contemporary with the new forms on the coast.

The markings phenomenon to me seems very much in line with the blade makers in Sudan where 'Kasallawi' makers produced kaskaras from the 1960s to present. The copied markings are similar but usually distinguishable from old ones by the blade context.

The Wilkinson blades were indeed produced for Abyssinia in the latter 19th century and most notably 1930s. Germany also produced blades for this market. Many of these blades ended up in Yemen where they were remounted in San'a.

We are focused on commercial and trade aspects, nothing to do with religion, so lets keep it that way OK .

Hey Jim,

You are correct, the "Magyar" blades were mainly sabers. They can be told apart from other european blades due to their decoration.

I could have used a better description to why I considered the Kattara a landlocked type. What I ment is that while it did spread into Zanzibar (was Omani territory anyways) it did not spread in Arabia, which its people favoured the shamshir oriented Badawi style. Keep in mind that Omani's lived in as far as Kuwait for God knows how far in time but the sword style was never adopted. The Omani Khanjar though was adopted quickly as a sign of prestige :-)

I need to start hunting for heirloom pictures... For example, a friend of mine who's from Omani origin has a Khanjar of super quality, think its made of gold . it belonged to his late grandfather. Almost all families here have a heirloom here and there...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Jim,

You are correct, the "Magyar" blades were mainly sabers. They can be told apart from other european blades due to their decoration.

I could have used a better description to why I considered the Kattara a landlocked type. What I ment is that while it did spread into Zanzibar (was Omani territory anyways) it did not spread in Arabia, which its people favoured the shamshir oriented Badawi style. Keep in mind that Omani's lived in as far as Kuwait for God knows how far in time but the sword style was never adopted. The Omani Khanjar though was adopted quickly as a sign of prestige :-)

I need to start hunting for heirloom pictures... For example, a friend of mine who's from Omani origin has a Khanjar of super quality, think its made of gold . it belonged to his late grandfather. Almost all families here have a heirloom here and there...

I think now we're on the same page You're right, the broadsword type did not gain favor throughout the rest of the Peninsula, except that in the Hadhramaut and Yemen the straight blade sa'if, actually pallasche became quite well established. These were single edged backswords, often with false edge, but of course far from the doubled edged kattara.


The heirloom pictures would be great!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Jim,

You are correct, the "Magyar" blades were mainly sabers. They can be told apart from other european blades due to their decoration.

I could have used a better description to why I considered the Kattara a landlocked type. What I ment is that while it did spread into Zanzibar (was Omani territory anyways) it did not spread in Arabia, which its people favoured the shamshir oriented Badawi style. Keep in mind that Omani's lived in as far as Kuwait for God knows how far in time but the sword style was never adopted. The Omani Khanjar though was adopted quickly as a sign of prestige :-)

I need to start hunting for heirloom pictures... For example, a friend of mine who's from Omani origin has a Khanjar of super quality, think its made of gold . it belonged to his late grandfather. Almost all families here have a heirloom here and there...

Salaams,
Kindly have a look at this link and may I ask you to help me decipher the Arabic stamp on the blade? http://www.trocadero.com/101antique...47179store.html Thanks very much.. Shukran Jazeelan wa Eid Mubarrak for Sunday coming..
Salaams Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Forum..
This webpage should perhaps be viewed as it may be related and shows Topkapi exhibits; users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/topkapiarms.html

I swear I have seen an Abbasid sword about 8th or 9th C with a dot to the blade tip...??

Ah perhaps I can slide in a quote from Jim on this note with bold letters by me ~
"In looking into references in Yucel, I was also amazed that I had apparantly missed so much attention to the presence of gold filled holes in many of these blades, including of course those believed to be Umayyad and Abbasid. Apparantly, according to Yucel, these occur in numbers of one to seven dots, and often are placed strategically next to inscriptions or devotional passages as seen in a number of the plates. He claims these gold dots are to give the swordsman good luck, which is of course a simplified reference to the much more complex talismanic applications which may be present.
I would note that many of these swords were from Mamluk provenance before entering the Ottoman armouries, which may explain the presence of this affectation found on some swords in North African sphere, using usually copper filled holes. The placing of these often near the blade tip is in the same fashion seen on many of the blades in Topkapi, though they are often but one of numerous other dots on the blade. Unquote


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

Salaams,

If you have a look at my letter you will see that I have questioned the 17th C European Trade Blade since assuming these blades were produced on mass in the Industrial Revolution they cannot have been made before a certain date. 17th C is far too early. (German invention and British went on at about the same pace whilst in India the Industrial Revolution did not arrive until the early 20th C.) That in no way rules out early foreign cottage industry production except they would have been a lot more expensive.

Having said that I am looking for local production in areas like Salalah and Nizwa but I have an open door on other regions. It is entirely possible that European Trade Blades entered Oman before 1821(Frazer Hormuz) Local blades could have been produced in tandem. It may also transpire as myth. ~ I need to see it proven.

My analysis of The Funoon and The Razha and Ibathi Islamic historical facts are practically the only reference to religion in fathoming out this weapons provenance and without it we would all still be in the dark regarding the Omani Kattara. Politics and Religion are used only in a purely historical sense after all History would be a very thin pamphlet without the driving force of either.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.