BAT HILTS

[laEspadaAncha]

I had always thought the nimcha hilt portrayed a stylized horse. IMO it is important to maintain consideration for an independent evolution of form… When compared to the "business end" of an edged weapon (though itself quite diverse in appearance), the hilt is comparably wide open to artistic and stylistic interpretations and/or variations. Given the rich history of edged weaponry in many cultures, might it be possible two distinct peoples may have thad he similar idea of portraying a stylized version of two different animals in roughly the same fashion?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

I had always thought the nimcha hilt portrayed a stylized horse. IMO it is important to maintain consideration for an independent evolution of form… When compared to the "business end" of an edged weapon (though itself quite diverse in appearance), the hilt is comparably wide open to artistic and stylistic interpretations and/or variations. Given the rich history of edged weaponry in many cultures, might it be possible two distinct peoples may have thad he similar idea of portraying a stylized version of two different animals in roughly the same fashion?

Salaams,
I would be the first to agree that parallel but unrelated form can accidentally occur in totally remote, unlinked, geographical groups but in this case these swords are virtually identical and there is good cause for a series of possible links. My suspicion is... The Zanzibari and Moroccan swords are directly linked to the Philippines sword by seatrade but I believe it isn't clearcut (excuse the pun) and I would like to know from where did this style of weapon originate?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Gentlemen,
Quite some time ago I posted this sword:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha

Don't you think it might be pertinent to the current discussion?

[Rick]

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

[ariel]

Well, the fact that only a few Phil. swords had "nimcha-like" handles does not constitute the evidence for parallel development. Just as likely, only few Phil swordmakers decided to imitate the foreign pattern. Only few Aceh swords have Gulabhati-like handles, but there is no doubt that the pattern was imitated from the Indian original, and not parallel-developed.
Mine has not only nimcha-like handle, but also nimcha -like quillons. The scabbard betrays the SE Asian manufacture.

Am I wrong?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

Salaams, Having read your reference to the earlier forum debate on a similar subject.. I see that the Nimcha is more likely to be an Italian or Venetian weapon.(I lean toward the Venetian because of their deep involvement in slavery and thus ships). The sword at your picture may be rather unusual since it appears to have a blade attributed to English ... and its a long blade... and the hilt is altered apparently since the knuckleguard is re engineered. It may be more the sort of sword carried by Tobias Blose in my earlier letter.

Your reference is most helpful so we can dive deeper on this problem. My thought is the Moroccan and Zanzibar Nimcha are morphs of the Italian and that seatrade carried the style to Manila. The problem with that oversimplistic view is... Once into Manila, the sword could have been exported to Mexico and back to Spain and then sold on to its trading neighbor Morocco in a slightly altered format...It goes round and round but its a great discussion.

Can anyone photo line up a Morrocan Nimcha next to a Zanzibar Nimcha please?

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Rick]

I'm getting dizzy !
Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together .

A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen .

My best,

Rick

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm getting dizzy !
Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together .

A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen .

My best,

Rick

Salaams,

I think it important that research includes google and the web... I for one have very few reference books and use the web a lot. I pressed in Zanzibar and Moroccan Nimchas and the main references pointed me back to our forum! ... Oh and to another to which many of our experts belonged way back then in about 2006. SFI did a detailed observation into Magrebi and Zanzibari Nimchas. I noted in that discussion your input and a brilliant report by Jim McDougal which in typical and precise detail gave a very informed view with references into the entire subject. In fact that report practically closed the debate however that is not the question posed by Royston at the beginning of this thread which is; I quote ~

" There has been trade between the Arab countries and S.E Asia for a long time.Does anyone else see a similarity between Nimcha hilts and the bat hilts of the Philippines ?My question is this:-Influence or Coincidence" ?

There appears to be a clear finger pointing to Italian/Venetian origins and it seems a sea-land passage via Saudia as it was then and Yemen to the Zanzibar Hub. Once there it would spiral virally to include all stations east and include the Philippines.

The confusion clouding this issue is in no one having a real outline of the difference in swords between the Zanzibar and Magrebi variants.. This should be expanded to include the Philippine weapon. Also included in the line up should be an Italian Venetian sword and your English variant. I think only then will we be able to discuss the pros and cons of this interesting question.

I caution to add that we may actually be talking about two different things... Perhaps we should be looking at it NOT as a sword ... but as a hilt....after all your blade is English and there are known to be two other blades at least ie one straight and the other curved... and what other trade blades are carried on the hilt? Ive seen an Omani Kattara 19thC trade blade on this hilt. What is the relationship to kastane Ceylonese blades? Anthony North considers quote "The kastane appears to have evolved from the Italian swords with similar guard development that likely reached these regions via Venetian trade routes".

It is still a very much open question to which input is sought from members. It could still amaze collectors to discover a whole new basis for this very important sword often claimed to be an Arabian Sword but can be argued as having Philippine or even Chinese roots. I still see it as wide open.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.