Help with Identification please

A. G. Maisey · 10th September 2010, 11:57 PM

Thanks for that Imas.

I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough.

I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted.

When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient.

If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade.

Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt.

If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it.

To return to the subject of heat.
When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel.

OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle.

Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran.

A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft.

It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

imas560 · 11th September 2010, 12:35 AM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process.
I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame).
I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with.
Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

A. G. Maisey · 11th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory.

The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot.

The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough.

imas560 · 16th September 2010, 06:08 AM

Hello,
bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off.
Was tightly attached with yarn and rag.
Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions:
Best way to remove the yarn and rag?
Can the yarn and rag be reused?
Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible
Many thanks

A. G. Maisey · 16th September 2010, 08:42 AM

Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish.

When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool.

imas560 · 16th September 2010, 10:54 AM

Thanks Mr. Maisey.
Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend.
Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic.

David · 16th September 2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imas560

Can the yarn and rag be reused?
Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible

While i can understand your desire to preserve all the parts you received with your keris i agree that in this case this material is rubbish.It always seemed to be a matter of respect to the keris to give it some new wrapping when refitting everything after cleaning. Sorta like putting on clean undies after a shower.

But along that same desire to preserve, i had a couple of instances where the wrap was human hair and i have kept the remnants of those wraps in a little box. I know i'm crazy, but it just seemed too personal to part with.

Jussi M. · 16th September 2010, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorta like putting on clean undies after a shower.

I just turn them around

To get back in topic, I look forward to see how this proceeds.

Thanks for sharing this.

J.

imas560 · 26th September 2010, 02:37 AM

Hello all,
spent a while trying to get an immersion suspension tube setup and finally managed to get 3 drink bottles glued together without leaks. So can now proceed with the degrease stage. I had a look in the local Asian Supermarket for some of the items mentioned (i.e. Axion dishwash liquid) but to no avail.
I used the following advice “I usually do it in the kitchen sink with warm water, dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush, then I rinse off and dry thoroughly before putting into the juice.”
I assembled the following items

I then ran the water and immersed the keris in the soapy warm water.

I then gave the keris a good scrubbing with the toothbrush, there was quite a bit of surface rust on the peksi(?)

I then proceeded to dry the keris with some towel rag

And now it should be ready for step 3.

16th September 2010, 06:08 AM	#4
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hilt removed Hello, bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off. Was tightly attached with yarn and rag. Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions: Best way to remove the yarn and rag? Can the yarn and rag be reused? Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible Many thanks

26th September 2010, 02:37 AM	#9
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Step 2: Degrease Hello all, spent a while trying to get an immersion suspension tube setup and finally managed to get 3 drink bottles glued together without leaks. So can now proceed with the degrease stage. I had a look in the local Asian Supermarket for some of the items mentioned (i.e. Axion dishwash liquid) but to no avail. I used the following advice “I usually do it in the kitchen sink with warm water, dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush, then I rinse off and dry thoroughly before putting into the juice.” I assembled the following items I then ran the water and immersed the keris in the soapy warm water. I then gave the keris a good scrubbing with the toothbrush, there was quite a bit of surface rust on the peksi(?) I then proceeded to dry the keris with some towel rag And now it should be ready for step 3.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

10th September 2010, 11:57 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Thanks for that Imas. I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough. I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted. When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient. If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade. Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt. If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it. To return to the subject of heat. When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel. OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle. Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran. A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft. It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

11th September 2010, 12:35 AM	#2
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello Mr. Maisey, I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process. I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame). I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with. Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

11th September 2010, 01:41 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory. The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot. The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough.

16th September 2010, 08:42 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish. When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool.

16th September 2010, 10:54 AM	#6
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Thanks Mr. Maisey. Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend. Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic.