Help with Identification please

kai · 5th September 2010, 03:04 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Quote:

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

I'm certainly with you. Actually your pics are among the most convincing I have seen so far for SEA hilts claimed to be rhino horn - the diagnostic structure can well be seen at the "head/face" (next time turn the hilt or the digicam to avoid reflections of the flash at the pertinent area). Needless to say, most "suspect" hilts prove to be (often albino) water buffalo horn upon microscopic examination...

Regards,
Kai

imas560 · 5th September 2010, 07:08 AM

Hello all,
Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg
The hilt is on very tight (no movement).
I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time.

I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area.

I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly.

I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt.
Two attempts was enough for today.
The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

Alam Shah · 5th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Good effort imas560..

sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2010, 02:17 PM

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Rick · 6th September 2010, 03:43 AM

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ?

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 04:21 AM

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

5th September 2010, 07:08 AM	#2
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Step 1: Hilt Removal Hello all, Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page. http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg The hilt is on very tight (no movement). I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time. I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area. I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly. I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt. Two attempts was enough for today. The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

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5th September 2010, 12:54 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Good effort imas560.. sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

5th September 2010, 02:17 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length. I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk. Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you? Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat. You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it. The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi. Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force. It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times. If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do. This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

6th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear All, i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts. Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method. I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here. its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris.... Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference. Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things.... If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

6th September 2010, 03:43 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes . Yes ? There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ? We'll move on now ....

6th September 2010, 04:21 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang. I have learnt much from that which you have written. I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.