Cameroon/Nigerian?

Tim Simmons · 30th September 2007, 09:47 PM

Back in the fold. Sometime back I lost this in a moment of madness. However I have paid Dha price and It is back where it belongs.

Flavio · 30th September 2007, 10:04 PM

Wonderful piece Tim, congratulations

Luc LEFEBVRE · 30th September 2007, 10:24 PM

It came from the Kirdi and especially from the tribes inhabiting the southern and eastern Mandara mountains.
Bana, Ndjeny, Daba, Kapsiki, Mada and Gemjek.
The function is described as a bushknife.
Clearing shrub, killing snakes and scorpions, and keeping stray dogs and potential thieves at bay.
(Peter Westerdijk - The African Throwing Knife-)

Nice exemple.

Luc

fernando · 30th September 2007, 10:47 PM

Hi Tim
What a most interesting piece.
It doesn't look so modern ... how old could it be ?
What is the handle material?
One more question. Which is the sharpened section, the round outer part only ?
Thanks and regards
fernando

Lew · 30th September 2007, 10:53 PM

Tim

Very nice! I must make a trip across the pond one day so you can take me to one of your swap meets

Lew

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 05:39 AM

Luc,
Nicely put detail on these! and you seem to have some excellent resources on African weapons, thank you for sharing the information ! African weapons are intriguing but most of the resources are difficult to come by and in many cases in other languages (although captioned and summarized in English in many cases). While much of the material on African weapons makes cursory examinations of the typology, discussion on development and possible influences found in the weapons seems carefully avoided.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2007, 10:47 AM

I not trying to suggest I know more than Peter Westerdijk. Ideas do change?
I wonder if this is more a relation to this type of artifact. I have to say it is more comfortable in the hand this way, not seeing the curve as a blade which incidentally is not sharp.

katana · 1st October 2007, 04:35 PM

Interesting 'form' Tim,
......with such a top heavy design and the blunt curved edge suggests that, if a weapon, is more like a 'flattened' mace or more accurately a 'war hammer' (especially with that 'spike')
Like Fernando I had assumed the curved edge would be sharp, had it been so...I do not think this would be a very good 'bush knife'.....a machete or the many forms that exist... Bolo's etc are 'top heavy' but have a longer blade and would be easier to control when cutting vegetation.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 2nd October 2007, 12:05 AM

To be complete, the page from the Westerdijk book, and the knive I have from this style province.
Luc

fernando · 2nd October 2007, 09:21 PM

Let me post some nonsense.Tolerance from the experts needed here.
Having a look at Waffen aus Zentral-Africa CD (courtesy of Freddy d'Hont), and to what else one can read out there, this piece is definately a throwing knife, or its pattern was borne for such purpose. Used by the ethnic groups Margi or Makatam, is called a Mberembere. The reason for its round edge not being sharp must be due to the fact that these things ceased their field action and became ceremonial adornments. I tryed to read some of the german text in Waffen aus Zentral-Africa with a translation motor, but the results are not so famous. Howver and amazingly i got it that these ( or other ) throwing knives had quite a serious performance, like being possible to be thrown to 100 mts. distance, half of it with accuracy. Thrown at 20 meters they could open ( no better term ) a man. So much for those who tell that throwing knives were made to be symbolic.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 3rd October 2007, 12:16 AM

This kind of weapon is classified in the throwing knife , because at the origin this general F shaped weapon was made to be thrown.But for some models the form and weight as changed and it became a sort of handed weapon.

I have test some TK, the F shaped of this region have a bad performance,an efficiancy range of 20m max.Difficult to have a good flight, after 3 or 4 spinning, the angle, direction and speed change.No chance to get the target.

The people of this country (Mandara mountains) use at first bows and arrows (poisoned), javelins, swords and battleaxes, clubs and sticks.
TK are used for personal protection on journeys and at night, they form part of the attire of the adult male and are also used as dancing ornaments.

Tk of the Congo have better performances.
But I like the shape of these F TK.

Luc

Tim Simmons · 3rd October 2007, 08:21 AM

Luc you are so right these do look fabulous and thanks for the information

. These may not be purpose made assault weapons but a blow from one is probably more than enough to stop a person getting in your way. I think it may be hard for us with such abundant diverse material culture and literate societies to fully appreciate the wonder of these artifacts.

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 04:55 PM

Luc,
Thank you again for sharing this material, its good to see information on these interesting weapons, and very much appreciated.
Best regards,
Jim

Luc LEFEBVRE · 13th April 2008, 06:00 PM

I've just find one like yours Tim.
Luc

Tim Simmons · 13th April 2008, 08:12 PM

Good for you Luc. Great minds think alike

or something like that

.

Iain · 29th March 2012, 09:36 PM

I'm digging up this thread for a pretty specific reason. I wanted to ask those that own throwing knives of the form Tim started this thread with all have the blunt edges Tim's does?

I've been looking at all the examples I could find online and none of them look particularly sharp. I'm just curious. Not that a lack of sharpness would make these any less of a weapon, I shudder to think what getting hit by one would feel like!

I found an image of a particularly nice one from pre 1914.

30th September 2007, 09:47 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Cameroon/Nigerian? Back in the fold. Sometime back I lost this in a moment of madness. However I have paid Dha price and It is back where it belongs.

1st October 2007, 10:47 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Look at it this way I not trying to suggest I know more than Peter Westerdijk. Ideas do change? I wonder if this is more a relation to this type of artifact. I have to say it is more comfortable in the hand this way, not seeing the curve as a blade which incidentally is not sharp.

2nd October 2007, 12:05 AM	#9
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	To be complete, the page from the Westerdijk book, and the knive I have from this style province. Luc Attached Images

13th April 2008, 06:00 PM	#14
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	I've just find one like yours Tim. Luc Attached Images

29th March 2012, 09:36 PM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I'm digging up this thread for a pretty specific reason. I wanted to ask those that own throwing knives of the form Tim started this thread with all have the blunt edges Tim's does? I've been looking at all the examples I could find online and none of them look particularly sharp. I'm just curious. Not that a lack of sharpness would make these any less of a weapon, I shudder to think what getting hit by one would feel like! I found an image of a particularly nice one from pre 1914. Attached Images

30th September 2007, 10:04 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Wonderful piece Tim, congratulations

30th September 2007, 10:24 PM	#3
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	It came from the Kirdi and especially from the tribes inhabiting the southern and eastern Mandara mountains. Bana, Ndjeny, Daba, Kapsiki, Mada and Gemjek. The function is described as a bushknife. Clearing shrub, killing snakes and scorpions, and keeping stray dogs and potential thieves at bay. (Peter Westerdijk - The African Throwing Knife-) Nice exemple. Luc

30th September 2007, 10:47 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Tim What a most interesting piece. It doesn't look so modern ... how old could it be ? What is the handle material? One more question. Which is the sharpened section, the round outer part only ? Thanks and regards fernando

30th September 2007, 10:53 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim Very nice! I must make a trip across the pond one day so you can take me to one of your swap meets Lew

1st October 2007, 05:39 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Luc, Nicely put detail on these! and you seem to have some excellent resources on African weapons, thank you for sharing the information ! African weapons are intriguing but most of the resources are difficult to come by and in many cases in other languages (although captioned and summarized in English in many cases). While much of the material on African weapons makes cursory examinations of the typology, discussion on development and possible influences found in the weapons seems carefully avoided. Best regards, Jim

1st October 2007, 04:35 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Interesting 'form' Tim, ......with such a top heavy design and the blunt curved edge suggests that, if a weapon, is more like a 'flattened' mace or more accurately a 'war hammer' (especially with that 'spike') Like Fernando I had assumed the curved edge would be sharp, had it been so...I do not think this would be a very good 'bush knife'.....a machete or the many forms that exist... Bolo's etc are 'top heavy' but have a longer blade and would be easier to control when cutting vegetation.

2nd October 2007, 09:21 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let me post some nonsense.Tolerance from the experts needed here. Having a look at Waffen aus Zentral-Africa CD (courtesy of Freddy d'Hont), and to what else one can read out there, this piece is definately a throwing knife, or its pattern was borne for such purpose. Used by the ethnic groups Margi or Makatam, is called a Mberembere. The reason for its round edge not being sharp must be due to the fact that these things ceased their field action and became ceremonial adornments. I tryed to read some of the german text in Waffen aus Zentral-Africa with a translation motor, but the results are not so famous. Howver and amazingly i got it that these ( or other ) throwing knives had quite a serious performance, like being possible to be thrown to 100 mts. distance, half of it with accuracy. Thrown at 20 meters they could open ( no better term ) a man. So much for those who tell that throwing knives were made to be symbolic.

3rd October 2007, 12:16 AM	#11
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	This kind of weapon is classified in the throwing knife , because at the origin this general F shaped weapon was made to be thrown.But for some models the form and weight as changed and it became a sort of handed weapon. I have test some TK, the F shaped of this region have a bad performance,an efficiancy range of 20m max.Difficult to have a good flight, after 3 or 4 spinning, the angle, direction and speed change.No chance to get the target. The people of this country (Mandara mountains) use at first bows and arrows (poisoned), javelins, swords and battleaxes, clubs and sticks. TK are used for personal protection on journeys and at night, they form part of the attire of the adult male and are also used as dancing ornaments. Tk of the Congo have better performances. But I like the shape of these F TK. Luc

3rd October 2007, 08:21 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Luc you are so right these do look fabulous and thanks for the information . These may not be purpose made assault weapons but a blow from one is probably more than enough to stop a person getting in your way. I think it may be hard for us with such abundant diverse material culture and literate societies to fully appreciate the wonder of these artifacts.

3rd October 2007, 04:55 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Luc, Thank you again for sharing this material, its good to see information on these interesting weapons, and very much appreciated. Best regards, Jim

13th April 2008, 08:12 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Good for you Luc. Great minds think alike or something like that .