Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2025, 09:57 PM

Thanks David!
Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect.
That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2026, 08:17 PM

Thought I would bump this thread as Rick has piqued my interest AGAIN! and I really would like to find more answers.
Obviously this is not directly on arms subject matter, but of course the very image of pirates brings to mind the weapons they used.

Hoping in the near future to move toward a more comprehensive look at the actual weapons used by pirates, beyond the more cliche' forms such as the cutlasses and pistols. With these vessels operating in the Indian Ocean and to their Madagascar center, the vessels preyed upon out of India must have had an array of arms which might have found use among pirates. Certainly, as part of the loot, these exotic weapons would surely have been deemed useful.

On a more esoteric note, one thing I would like to bring to attention here, is on the huge 'ingot' of this discussion on the Clifford find, along with what may be spurious markings as often used on the lead ballast bars.....the presence of the device known as the 'Tau' cross. This may be perceived as the 'triple tau' which as part of Masonic regalia and symbolism may represent the 'T' over'H' (=templum hierosylmoe, temple of Jerusalem) which is said to be part of Royal Arch (York Rite) symbolism. In other references the symbol can be associated with 'the key to the treasure', in any number of metaphoric explanations.

This curious symbol placed on an ingot in this manner seems most curious and does not seem used on other bars or ingots whether lead or precious metal.

If the bar was, according to UNESCO, 95% lead and 5% something else (silver?) and with this highly suggestive symbol, could that lead to the controversy ? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BAR?

The imaqes are of the 'ingot' in question......next an actual silver ingot note markings' dynamics.

CutlassCollector · Yesterday, 12:49 PM

These silver ingots appeared at an auction last year.
Not so many markings but recovered from a wreck dateable to around 1739.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 05:22 PM

This is excellent CC!!!! Thank you!
This is more what silver ingots should look like, incl. size weight shape etc.

The 'ingot' shown by Clifford in 2000 is remarkably similar, as I have noted, to the boat shape of the 'great pig' style lead ballast bars from England in the late 17th c. While obviously that lends credence to the UNESCO report that this was 95% lead, it still is curious where the bar came from...where did it go?

Beyond the retort from the dive project declaring the UNESCO report 'disgraceful'?? why was there no supported rebuttal after the 2015 news flurry of the negative report ?

On the face of it, why would Kidd have left his 'treasure' aboard the leaking and virtually useless "Adventure Galley" after removing guns and everything else before burning it? Treasures found on vessels happen when they are 'lost' at sea, NOT when scuttled in a calm harbor. How would this situation have been even remotely acceptable?

It would have been more believable if the bar would have been presented for what it was.....but then...wouldnt there be more than one?

The find was alleged found in piles of 'ballast STONES' which make sense as a number of vessels had been scuttled in the careening of others in these locations.

Just lots of questions!
Thank you for coming in CC,

All best regards
Jim

6th February 2026, 08:17 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,792	Thought I would bump this thread as Rick has piqued my interest AGAIN! and I really would like to find more answers. Obviously this is not directly on arms subject matter, but of course the very image of pirates brings to mind the weapons they used. Hoping in the near future to move toward a more comprehensive look at the actual weapons used by pirates, beyond the more cliche' forms such as the cutlasses and pistols. With these vessels operating in the Indian Ocean and to their Madagascar center, the vessels preyed upon out of India must have had an array of arms which might have found use among pirates. Certainly, as part of the loot, these exotic weapons would surely have been deemed useful. On a more esoteric note, one thing I would like to bring to attention here, is on the huge 'ingot' of this discussion on the Clifford find, along with what may be spurious markings as often used on the lead ballast bars.....the presence of the device known as the 'Tau' cross. This may be perceived as the 'triple tau' which as part of Masonic regalia and symbolism may represent the 'T' over'H' (=templum hierosylmoe, temple of Jerusalem) which is said to be part of Royal Arch (York Rite) symbolism. In other references the symbol can be associated with 'the key to the treasure', in any number of metaphoric explanations. This curious symbol placed on an ingot in this manner seems most curious and does not seem used on other bars or ingots whether lead or precious metal. If the bar was, according to UNESCO, 95% lead and 5% something else (silver?) and with this highly suggestive symbol, could that lead to the controversy ? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BAR? The imaqes are of the 'ingot' in question......next an actual silver ingot note markings' dynamics. Attached Images

Yesterday, 12:49 PM	#33
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 373	These silver ingots appeared at an auction last year. Not so many markings but recovered from a wreck dateable to around 1739. Attached Images

23rd February 2025, 09:57 PM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,792	Thanks David! Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect. That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.

Yesterday, 05:22 PM	#34
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,792	This is excellent CC!!!! Thank you! This is more what silver ingots should look like, incl. size weight shape etc. The 'ingot' shown by Clifford in 2000 is remarkably similar, as I have noted, to the boat shape of the 'great pig' style lead ballast bars from England in the late 17th c. While obviously that lends credence to the UNESCO report that this was 95% lead, it still is curious where the bar came from...where did it go? Beyond the retort from the dive project declaring the UNESCO report 'disgraceful'?? why was there no supported rebuttal after the 2015 news flurry of the negative report ? On the face of it, why would Kidd have left his 'treasure' aboard the leaking and virtually useless "Adventure Galley" after removing guns and everything else before burning it? Treasures found on vessels happen when they are 'lost' at sea, NOT when scuttled in a calm harbor. How would this situation have been even remotely acceptable? It would have been more believable if the bar would have been presented for what it was.....but then...wouldnt there be more than one? The find was alleged found in piles of 'ballast STONES' which make sense as a number of vessels had been scuttled in the careening of others in these locations. Just lots of questions! Thank you for coming in CC, All best regards Jim