Palembang Keris

[Pendita65]

I like to share two pictures of the keris that i won tonight in an auction and will pick it up end of this week.

It was stated Indonesian Keris but the dress is Palembang, and the ukiran is imho Madura

So the blade is in need of a washing, is the blade Madura too? Or is this a mariage ?

Hope to hear from the experts.

Regards, Martin

[JustYS]

Hi Pendita,


I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your questions, but I have a general question regarding Palembang classification (either for the dress or the blade) what is the reference point (in terms of era and style)? Is it Sriwijaya Kingdom (671-1025)?

Cheers,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pendita65

I like to share two pictures of the keris that i won tonight in an auction and will pick it up end of this week.

It was stated Indonesian Keris but the dress is Palembang, and the ukiran is imho Madura

So the blade is in need of a washing, is the blade Madura too? Or is this a mariage ?

Hope to hear from the experts.

Hi Martin,

Now I know who bid me out! The blade is Palembang too IMO. When you look close you will see that on top of the gonjo and the gandik area had once kinatah. The hilt is North-East coast of Java, not typically Madura.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

The kinatah work will have looked like this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I agree that the hilt is North coast Jawa, & tending towards the east, however, the selut is typically Palembang.

Historically there have been very close ties between Jawa & Palembang. Palembang Keris blade style follows Javanese style very closely, & frankly, I cannot tell from a photo the difference between a blade that might be Palembang, or that might be Jawa or Madura. I would need to handle it & even then I might not be certain.

This keris could be a marriage, but then we need to consider the historical ties and the fact that it is in a Palembang wrongko. Maybe it is not a marriage. If it were mine I'd leave as is. Lots of mix & match examples of keris exist that are true to the area from which they come, not put together somewhere else.

There is something else too. In recent years current era Indonesian collectors & dealers have been trying to promote the recognition of a "tangguh Palembang". In my opinion this is a total impossibility, for the very simple reason that there is no uniquely Palembang blade. A genuine keris Palembang, in the sense of a keris put together in Palembang for wear in Palembang can have a variety of different blades used, including Bugis, Javanese, Peninsula & still be the real deal. The old Javanese tangguh system does not recognise a tangguh Palembang.

Nice keris.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There is something else too. In recent years current era Indonesian collectors & dealers have been trying to promote the recognition of a "tangguh Palembang". In my opinion this is a total impossibility, for the very simple reason that there is no uniquely Palembang blade. A genuine keris Palembang, in the sense of a keris put together in Palembang for wear in Palembang can have a variety of different blades used, including Bugis, Javanese, Peninsula & still be the real deal. The old Javanese tangguh system does not recognise a tangguh Palembang.

Nice keris.

Thank you for the explanation Alan

[Pendita65]

Hello Mr. Maisey,

Thank you for your message, and last weekend I allready read your thoughts about the so called Tanguh Palembang and your view about it. It’s interesting to read and I have to learn more about the Keris. Most of the time I buy them on instinct. And I investigate them through books, but on the forum I find so much knowledge that at certain times I know nothing only my gutt feeling and my trained eye for craftsmanship. I am allready at a point that I will not buy any Keris that I didn’t handled on viewing days as I also bought ones that are to worn out or 13 in a dozen Keris.

I am now on my way by train to pick up
The Palembang dressed Keris. When home I will take some more images to share.

Have a nice day and regards,

Martin

[Pendita65]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi Pendita,


I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your questions, but I have a general question regarding Palembang classification (either for the dress or the blade) what is the reference point (in terms of era and style)? Is it Sriwijaya Kingdom (671-1025)?

Cheers,

Hi JustYS,

I am also not knowledgeable enough and will read the link you shared about the Sriwiyaya Kingdom.

Thanks and regards, Martin

[Pendita65]

So I am in the train back home after picking up the Keris. And could not resist to share two pictures of the fitting of the Keris and the last remains of the Kinatah.

I think the fit is beautiful.

Regards, Martin

[David]

It seems very likely indeed that this Palembang style sheath was indeed made for this blade. As for the hilt, it could have been a later addition given it's North Coast origin, but since the selut is clearly a Sumatran style i would be inclined to think that this ensemble is a legitmate Sumatran one rather than a dealer marriage. Have you determined the material of the selut yet. Could be silver. Seems you got yourself a fairly nice Sumatran keris there with a nice Ganesha hilt. Shame the kinatah is gone, but not the worst thing. Congratulations!

[Pendita65]

Hi David,

Thank you for your comment. And yes it is silver I allready cleaned it, but I would like to know how to de rust this Keris, I am not sure if the vinegar or citric acid method would be the best method. So hope to hear from the experts.

Regards, Martin

[A. G. Maisey]

Martin, I do not know what the "best" method is to derust ferric material, I only know what i have been using for about 70 years now, & that I find to be unfailingly satisfactory, & that is vinegar. I believe the complete method has been put into this Forum a number of times, so I will leave it at that.

However, if you do use the vinegar soak method, it is probable that you will lose those last remaining little specks of gold. This would not concern me at all, but it might possibly concern you & some other people.

[Pendita65]

Thank you Mr. Maisey and yes i was thinking maybe to cover the gold with a varnish before soaking it. Detlef also advised me to use a diluted vinegar.

I will see this week what i will use,

Regards, Martin

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pendita65

Detlef also advised me to use a diluted vinegar.

Detlef advised a diluted vinegar essence!

[Pendita65]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Detlef advised a diluted vinegar essence!

[David]

Well, one way opr another i would say that you must attend to the rust problem as it will only get worse on it's own, not better. I have never tried covering with varnish, but it might be successful. For me, preserving the iron from further destruction through rust is more important than saving the last bits of gold. Trying the varnish may indeed be a good solution. There doesn't seem to be much rust where the last bits of gold are on top of the gonjo.

[A. G. Maisey]

Martin, all I use is just ordinary household white vinegar.

I get the blade as clean and oil free as possible first by washing with dishwash liquid, then I put it into a wall paper trough --- that which is used for hanging wall paper --- cover it with vinegar & take it out daily to brush under running tap water. Any little bits of hard rust I pick off with a sharp tool, a little pocket knife blade works OK, I use a saddlers awl.

I have tried cleaning vinegar , its supposedly stronger, but to me they both seem pretty much the same & cleaning vinegar is twice the price of the cheapest ordinary white vinegar.

I can see no point at all in diluting the vinegar, but in the past I have added a bit of hydrochloric acid to it, didn't seem to make much difference, if any at all.

When all the rust has gone I rinse thoroughly & drench with WD40, that is, if I do not immediately stain with warangan. Sometimes an old blade will come through the vinegar clean process with the pamor already good enough for viewing.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can see no point at all in diluting the vinegar, ....

No, vinegar I also wouldn't dilute, the cheapest vinegar you can get in Germany is vinegar essence, this I dilute of course.

[A. G. Maisey]

Maybe "vinegar essence" is what in Australia is named as acetic acid.

Household vinegar is only about 5% or so acid, it costs me about AUD1.25 per liter. With changes of vinegar along the way, over a week or so, I would use maybe 2 liters of vinegar to clean a fairly heavy incrustation of rust from a blade.

Acetic acid comes in various strengths, all the way through to about 80% acid.

I have no idea at all where I could buy acetic acid. We used to use it to burn warts off --- dab a bit on the wart with the end of a match stick, & that was bought from a pharmacist.

[Rick]

When I used to do black and white photography, during the developing process, after the paper print had been developed enough you then put the print into what is called Stop Bath to arrest the process before the picture became too dark. The stop bath was very strong acetic acid. I suppose photography supply shops are few and far between in this age of digital.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maybe "vinegar essence" is what in Australia is named as acetic acid.

It's 25% strong, you dilute it to 5% vinegar.

[sirek]

Electrolytic derusting is a safe, effective, and non-destructive method for removing iron oxide from steel and iron using a 12V DC power supply (like a car battery charger), water, washing soda, and a sacrificial anode

[Green]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Martin, all I use is just ordinary household white vinegar.

Any little bits of hard rust I pick off with a sharp tool, a little pocket knife blade works OK, I use a saddlers awl.

I wonder how one can do this method to get rid of hard rust?
won't it destroy the surface of the blade?

A video of how this is done might help.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, that was what I had in mind when I wrote:-

"--- I do not know what the "best" method is to derust ferric material ---"

that electrolytic method, but I could not recall what it was called.

I've just AI'd it, & it does seem to be pretty effective, however, boring down into the details, it does seem to have some limitations.

It is something that I would never use, simply because of the playing around that needs to be done, the power source & etc & etc. What I do with vinegar is safe, effective, & no problem, the vinegar definitely does not cause any deterioration of the unrusted material.

However, for somebody with lots of time who enjoys playing with these sort of things, I think it could be quite an interesting method to use, & it does seem to be quite effective.

HARD RUST

the hard rust that we often encounter on an old blade is picked off with a sharp tool, see Post #17. This does not damage the blade surface in any way, the rust is simply gently removed & the blade goes back into the vinegar to clean up the residue.

I once spent about 12 months cleaning a Balinese blade that had very beautiful, original warangan, but was peppered with tiny pinholes all of which had rust in them. I worked an hour or so at a time, most nights, using magnification, strong light & various needles, I picked all the rust out of every hole. I still have that blade, still with its original warangan.

[Pendita65]

Mr. Maisey and the others,

thank you for your thoughts and sharing them, i normally use citric acid solution and never used vinegar, i bought today household cleaning vinegar so i will test it. I used electrolyse in the past when i was restoring old woodworking tools and it works, but i prefer citric acid. I know that electrolyse can have influence on the steel of springs it will weaken them so that's the main reason for me not to use it on a keris. I also know that it can be done with laser but i am also affraid it will damage the blade more than a citric acid colution. I have a few other blades that i will test with the vinegar and see what it brings before i use it on the Palembang.

Thanks again and regards,

Martin

[A. G. Maisey]

Any acid will do the job Martin, I used to use pineapple juice, which was truly excellent, but this was more than 20 years ago when I was able to buy big tins of fresh, natural Australian pineapple juice, then the local company was bought out by a big multi national, now the pine juice sold by that same company is reconstituted from concentrate brought in from Brazil & maybe some other places. This garbage is undrinkable & does a lousy job of cleaning ferric material.

Some people in Solo do use citric acid.

I have also used tomato juice, it does a good job but it is too expensive.

Yes, the electrolytic method can have negative effects on steel, according to AI.

Thinking back, I believe the first rusted keris blade I cleaned was done with muriatic acid --- another name for hydrochloric acid that was used by plumbers --- it was not kind to the blades. After that I used vinegar, then I used pineapple juice, then I went back to vinegar. I've tried various things over the years, but these days I always use plain old household vinegar, probably because it is easy & cheap. I've got several blades in vinegar right now in fact.