XL.german hunting sword , old blade with wheel and gallows

[francantolin]

Hello everybody,
I would like to present my latest find:
a beautiful 19th-century German hunting sword, XL size, with an older blade. Fortunately, the bidding didn't go too high, and I was able to get it, perhaps because it's a composite object and no one else was interested. In any case, I like it very much, and the blade piques my curiosity: Total dimensions: 80 centimeters long for a 63 cm long.flat blade and over 4 cm wide. On both sides of the blade are a wheel and a hangman's gallows (brass remains), as is the case on swords of justice.
According to the sellers, this cannot be a sword of justice blade because it is too narrow, and it would rather be a shortened felddegen blade, like the one I have in the photo.
It's still quite wide, not 5-6cm of course, and pointed at the end, but still a beautiful old wide blade estimated to date by the seller from the sixteenth or seventeenth century.
And the decorations would have been made for of superstition/talisman.
What do you think?
Any comment welcomed.
Kind regards

[francantolin]

Other pics and the felddegen for comparison

[Hotspur]

That is a really nice piece. There are some fine elements there but I can't be of any help on the marks. The blade steel appears to be crucible/cast steel.


There are some details that seem to last centuries. The guard profile is adopted on US militia swords. There are a variety of the cruciform bow ties.

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

This is an outstanding hirschfanger, as noted clearly using the repurposed blade of a very old 'sword of justice' which served as a bearing sword in many of the principalities of the Germanic states.

From the middle ages, where there were no police forces etc. and of course notable lawlessness prevailed, justice and accountability were the business of courts, often termed Fehmic courts.
The League of the Holy Court, the Vehmgericht (callef the vehm) were comprised of the 'free judges' and they would decide the culpibility, fate and execution of wrong doers.

These notorious courts and free judges were much feared and naturally could become out of control, becoming in sense,'kangaroo courts', and leading to the typical embellishments and lore sensationalizing them.

The secretive character of these groups of 'enforcers' and use of esoteric and sometimes religious or occult symbolism was often seen on the blades of many of the weapons they used.
The dark symbols of the wheel and noose were often found on the sword of justice, not actually used as execution swords typically, but as the bearing sword, signifying the magistrate's ultimate authority to impose death as required.

Often when an execution was carried out, there are references that suggest a knife with cabalistic letters or such symbolism was left by the corpse to indicate this was an act of justice and not a murder.

In my opinion this old blade, probably 18th century or earlier, was taken from one of these old swords, and used dramatically in this hirshfanger. The Vehmic courts, though primarily prevailing in Westphalian regions, were finally formally abolished in 1811, and had continued more in traditional sense.

While I see the caution as noted by the sellers as far is not seeing this as a sword of justice, the blade as noted may well have been cut down as often the case. As far as these inscribed markings, they seem crude, ersatz versions of the more familiar cross and gallows devices on 17th century 'execution' type swords (usually with rebated blade tips and the three hole piercing at blade end).

In noting the gallows, the intended meaning is obvious...with the wheel, breaking ties to a wheel was also a means of capital punishment.

[francantolin]

Thank’s a lot for your message Jim and Hotspur,
for comparison, here two pictures with a ́’ jagdtplauté’ I have , larger and longer blade but thinner

[Akanthus]

In his great book " Hirschfänger -Zur historischen Entwicklung jagdlicher Seitenwaffen " Mr.Herbert H.Westphal shows a 17th.century combination of a hunting sword grip with a executioners blade.Here you also find wheel and gallow.The weapon is peserved in the collection of Schloss Erbach.He mentioned that such a combination is extraordinary because people had stong reservations concerning executioners tools and his profession.In my opinion it possibly was the blade of a judicial sword, which was a symbol of jurisdiction.Same thing,different centuries.

[francantolin]

Waoh ! Great !
Thank you 😀

[francantolin]

Really similar blades ,
I just wonder if ́these two large hirschfanger were made and then engraved as an authoriy status symbol of justice
( ́’ ́mine ́’ rehilted during the 19th century )
Or made with ́real cut down justice sword.
If they were just symbolic, the blades could even be smaller.
Has someone seen these symbols on small models ?

Kind regards

[Akanthus]

Westphal mentioned in his book that in this case they did not use the originally tang.They formed a new tang from the upper strong part of the blade. One of the cutting edges of the forner biconvex blade was removed to create a backblade which is a characteristic feature of German 17.century hunting swords. In result the wheel moves out of the centre of the blade ,witch is smaller now.So the blade is shorter and smaller .In my opinion it us difficult to decide whether the blade had a executive or a legislative history.

[Jim McDougall]

As I had mentioned, the notions of 'executioner swords' were with somewhat reserved character.
It seems with the added example here that the idea of a less dramatic thus more acceptable weapon in the manner of the social and status oriented hanger, hirschfanger but bearing these symbols of authority makes sense.

Clearly this was not a 'one off' practice, yet not well known, so I think important to note here.

With that being the case, the blade need not be an original 'sword of justice' example cut down, but the same type symbols used to denote the same authority intended on the older and heavier swords.

A sword I have with staghorn grip and a rulers cypher and with unusual recurved blade makes me wonder if it may have been in somewhat the same capacity in mid 18th c.