Yataghans

Miguel · 22nd March 2016, 11:40 PM

Hello Everyone,

I would like to share these two rather worn Yataghans in the hope that the more knowledgeable of you about this type of weapon can identify origin and approximate age etc.
No 1:- Scabbard is wood covered in black leather with silvered steel locket and chape. The eared hilt is made of bone or ivory riveted to the tang with Coral and Stone decoration. The blade has what appears to be an Islamic inscription in gold koftgari with a seal of Solomon and a deep blade stamp.
O/L 28.25 ins with blade length of 22.5 ins x 1.125 to 1.5 ins wide.

No 2:- Scabbard is wood covered with what appears to be Lizard skin and having brass locket and chape. the hilt is similar to No 1 but the decoration is of better quality. The blade has what appears to be Islamic inscriptions in Silver koftgari ( very worn ) on both sides.
O/L 28.75 with blade length of 22.75 ins x 1.125 ins wide.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Miguel.
No 1:-

Miguel · 22nd March 2016, 11:48 PM

No 2:- Photos

ariel · 23rd March 2016, 12:08 AM

What do you mean, - worn?

They are old and they earned every wrinkle, scar and spot:-)

Very good yats. Congratulations!!!

TVV · 23rd March 2016, 12:52 AM

Very nice yataghans Miguel, thank you for sharing. generally speaking, yataghans with big ears of walrus ivory are attributed to the Western Balkans. The first one is very typical, possibly made in Bosnia. The steel furniture on the scabbard is a little more unusual and could be a case of some Western influence.

The second yatghan has lovely silver band and bolsters, in a style associated with Greece. The scabbard with the reptile skin and the shiny brass chape looks to me like a more recent repair/replacement. The chape almost looks like something out of India/Afghanistan and it is possible the whole thing was put together with spare parts, as the reptile skin appears to be glued and not stitched.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Miguel · 25th March 2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What do you mean, - worn?

They are old and they earned every wrinkle, scar and spot:-)

Very good yats. Congratulations!!!

Thanks Ariel I am pleased that you like them, have you any idea of how old they might be ?
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 25th March 2016, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Very nice yataghans Miguel, thank you for sharing. generally speaking, yataghans with big ears of walrus ivory are attributed to the Western Balkans. The first one is very typical, possibly made in Bosnia. The steel furniture on the scabbard is a little more unusual and could be a case of some Western influence.

The second yatghan has lovely silver band and bolsters, in a style associated with Greece. The scabbard with the reptile skin and the shiny brass chape looks to me like a more recent repair/replacement. The chape almost looks like something out of India/Afghanistan and it is possible the whole thing was put together with spare parts, as the reptile skin appears to be glued and not stitched.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Thank you for your comments Teodor I am much obliged for this information. I had a feeling myself about the scabbard of No 2 not being quite right and I think your comments re being put together with spare parts may well be the case, I have compared the chape with the ones on my Khyber Knife scabbards and they are similar.
You did not comment on the `Seal of Solomon` inscription and I would be grateful to learn whether it is talismanic or something else.
Regards
Miguel

estcrh · 26th March 2016, 07:42 AM

Is this scabbard old or new/newish?

Miguel · 27th March 2016, 03:15 PM

From it`s condition externaly and from the wooden liners I believe it to be old
Miguel

TVV · 27th March 2016, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

You did not comment on the `Seal of Solomon` inscription and I would be grateful to learn whether it is talismanic or something else.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel,

The so-called seal of Solomon was actually quite common on yataghans. Its symbolism perhaps was a representation of the vastness of the universe. If you do a search, I believe there have been some discussions on its use and meaning in older threads.

Regards,
Teodor

estcrh · 27th March 2016, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

From it`s condition externaly and from the wooden liners I believe it to be old
Miguel

If you have a better picture of the scabbard mounts I would like to see them. Here is another yatagan that is extremely similar to yours.

Miguel · 29th March 2016, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Miguel,

The so-called seal of Solomon was actually quite common on yataghans. Its symbolism perhaps was a representation of the vastness of the universe. If you do a search, I believe there have been some discussions on its use and meaning in older threads.

Regards,
Teodor

Thanks Teodor, I am much obliged for the information.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th March 2016, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you have a better picture of the scabbard mounts I would like to see them. Here is another yatagan that is extremely similar to yours.

I will try and take some better photos of the fittings for you but you may have to wait a day or two as I will have to retrieve it from its storage box in the loft but it wont be any problem. Your Yataghans and scabbard do look very similar and it will be interest to compare the scabbard fittings. I hope the photos will be good enough as I think you know I am pretty hopeless with the camera anyway I will do my best.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 31st March 2016, 07:51 PM

Hi estcrh,

Photos as promised hope they are OK for your purpose. Miguel

estcrh · 1st April 2016, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi estcrh,

Photos as promised hope they are OK for your purpose. Miguel

Thanks Miquel, so it looks like the pattern is made from strips of metal crossing over each other that have been applied on top of the throat and chape, is this correct?

Miguel · 2nd April 2016, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks Miquel, so it looks like the pattern is made from strips of metal crossing over each other that have been applied on top of the throat and chape, is this correct?

Its a pleasure, Yes you are perfectly correct. I had not noticed this before your query so I checked. The throat piece is a slightly loose due to shrinking leather and wood so I slipped it partly off the scabbard to look and feel inside which was perfectly smooth and free of any impressions in the metal. Well spotted.

Is it appropriate to ask why you wanted this info?
Regards
Miguel

estcrh · 2nd April 2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Its a pleasure, Yes you are perfectly correct. I had not noticed this before your query so I checked. The throat piece is a slightly loose due to shrinking leather and wood so I slipped it partly off the scabbard to look and feel inside which was perfectly smooth and free of any impressions in the metal. Well spotted.

Is it appropriate to ask why you wanted this info?
Regards
Miguel

This is not a technique I have seen on a yatagan scabbard before, the chape and the throat have different designs, and this method of applying crossing metal strips to the scabbard must have been difficult to do, it is just unusual, maybe another one like it will turn up.

ariel · 2nd April 2016, 06:02 PM

The last pic suggests that the "strips" we're not applied to flat metal ( no trace of welding or other similar technique). Rather, they were hammered out from the other side of the sheet metal, then it was bent and formed into a scabbard fitting.

estcrh · 4th April 2016, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The last pic suggests that the "strips" we're not applied to flat metal ( no trace of welding or other similar technique). Rather, they were hammered out from the other side of the sheet metal, then it was bent and formed into a scabbard fitting.

Miquel should be able to answer this question, are they actual applied strips of metal on top of a base of sheet metal or are the simulated designs that were hammered out from the inside of a sheet of metal.

Miguel · 4th April 2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The last pic suggests that the "strips" we're not applied to flat metal ( no trace of welding or other similar technique). Rather, they were hammered out from the other side of the sheet metal, then it was bent and formed into a scabbard fitting.

I believe you are correct and the chape made in a more conventional way. I can not easily remove the chape to check the internal surface but there is really no need. As Estcrh said it is an unusual and difficult way to apply the decoration to the throat piece and also that this decoration does not match that on the chape. I wonder if this is a replacent thrat piece or the original was plain and the strips applied in an attempt to match the chape, whatever it is a good piece of workmansip.
Regards
Miguel

22nd March 2016, 11:40 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Yataghans Hello Everyone, I would like to share these two rather worn Yataghans in the hope that the more knowledgeable of you about this type of weapon can identify origin and approximate age etc. No 1:- Scabbard is wood covered in black leather with silvered steel locket and chape. The eared hilt is made of bone or ivory riveted to the tang with Coral and Stone decoration. The blade has what appears to be an Islamic inscription in gold koftgari with a seal of Solomon and a deep blade stamp. O/L 28.25 ins with blade length of 22.5 ins x 1.125 to 1.5 ins wide. No 2:- Scabbard is wood covered with what appears to be Lizard skin and having brass locket and chape. the hilt is similar to No 1 but the decoration is of better quality. The blade has what appears to be Islamic inscriptions in Silver koftgari ( very worn ) on both sides. O/L 28.75 with blade length of 22.75 ins x 1.125 ins wide. Thanking you in anticipation. Miguel. No 1:- Attached Images

22nd March 2016, 11:48 PM	#2
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	No 2:- Photos Attached Images

26th March 2016, 07:42 AM	#7
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Is this scabbard old or new/newish? Attached Images

31st March 2016, 07:51 PM	#13
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi estcrh, Photos as promised hope they are OK for your purpose. Miguel Attached Images

23rd March 2016, 12:08 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What do you mean, - worn? They are old and they earned every wrinkle, scar and spot:-) Very good yats. Congratulations!!!

23rd March 2016, 12:52 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	Very nice yataghans Miguel, thank you for sharing. generally speaking, yataghans with big ears of walrus ivory are attributed to the Western Balkans. The first one is very typical, possibly made in Bosnia. The steel furniture on the scabbard is a little more unusual and could be a case of some Western influence. The second yatghan has lovely silver band and bolsters, in a style associated with Greece. The scabbard with the reptile skin and the shiny brass chape looks to me like a more recent repair/replacement. The chape almost looks like something out of India/Afghanistan and it is possible the whole thing was put together with spare parts, as the reptile skin appears to be glued and not stitched. Sincerely, Teodor

27th March 2016, 03:15 PM	#8
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	From it`s condition externaly and from the wooden liners I believe it to be old Miguel

2nd April 2016, 06:02 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The last pic suggests that the "strips" we're not applied to flat metal ( no trace of welding or other similar technique). Rather, they were hammered out from the other side of the sheet metal, then it was bent and formed into a scabbard fitting.