Pala + Saif = ??

A.alnakkas · 28th July 2015, 04:24 AM

Hello everyone,

I am wondering, does anyone actually have examples of Arabian Peninsula saif with a Pala blade? I havent seen a single one with the attractive Turkish blade.

There are Syrian examples around, usually a rehilt with Iron fittings.. but no Saudi/gulf made examples so far.

Kubur · 28th July 2015, 03:05 PM

Hi,
Could you post the Syrian examples?
Never seen before... Are you sure that they are not fake?
Best,
Kubur

Gavin Nugent · 28th July 2015, 03:35 PM

An unusual sword.

I've seen Pala blades correctly married in some unusual dress but that would be quite an unusual sword, quite far removed from the traditional form.

Do you think it is more likely that you'd find a longer Ottoman kilij type blade of a more traditional profile before you'd find the broader Pala type within Arabian Peninsula.

What are your thoughts on either. Have you seen longer blades with a yelman in this dress?

Gavin

A.alnakkas · 28th July 2015, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

An unusual sword.

I've seen Pala blades correctly married in some unusual dress but that would be quite an unusual sword, quite far removed from the traditional form.

Do you think it is more likely that you'd find a longer Ottoman kilij type blade of a more traditional profile before you'd find the broader Pala type within Arabian Peninsula.

What are your thoughts on either. Have you seen longer blades with a yelman in this dress?

Gavin

Hey Gav,

Yep those exist. Also, longer blades with yelmans with Gulf Arab mounts are usually from India although Persian and Ottoman examples exist. Will share a couple from my collection soon. Though I believe now that the pala blade was probably not liked in this region.

Syrian hilted Palas do exist, although mostly rehilts with iron mounts.

Kubur · 28th July 2015, 03:49 PM

Please, post your examples, thanks!

A.alnakkas · 28th July 2015, 04:08 PM

Here are two. Although I have seen others in Saudi museums (King Faisal swords) and others owned by collectors in KSA.

Both blades are wootz.

Kubur · 28th July 2015, 04:53 PM

Thanks
They are not Pala.
They are Indian blades with Arabian hilts.
Best,
Kubur

A.alnakkas · 28th July 2015, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thanks
They are not Pala.
They are Indian blades with Arabian hilts.
Best,
Kubur

Yep I posted these as examples of saifs with Yelmans and not palas, as its obvious that am looking for such examples with pala blades.

Richard G · 28th July 2015, 06:57 PM

Hello Mr Alnakass,
Certainly you can find early photographs of dignitaries in the Hejaz wearing what would probably now be described as a Turkish Killij. Obviously this is the Ottoman influence, but it seems to me that blades, now termed pala(s) were not uncommon in this area of what is now Saudi Arabia.
Regards
Richard

A.alnakkas · 28th July 2015, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello Mr Alnakass,
Certainly you can find early photographs of dignitaries in the Hejaz wearing what would probably now be described as a Turkish Killij. Obviously this is the Ottoman influence, but it seems to me that blades, now termed pala(s) were not uncommon in this area of what is now Saudi Arabia.
Regards
Richard

Hey Richard,

Yes though the Hejaz area was under heavy Ottoman influence and control. The sword mounts type that am talking about is like the swords I have shared. The existence of fully Ottoman dressed swords (including pala's) is documented in the gulf, mainly in Hejaz and loot/gift items. A Kuwaiti prince is shown with an Ottoman sword for example (I have the photo somewhere!) and Ashraaf of Makkah carried Ottoman swords. I am mainly looking for hybrids here :-)

ariel · 28th July 2015, 11:18 PM

One of a very well known dealers had in his catalogue a true Pala blade with a disproportionally long yataghan handle.
I am still kicking myself for not buying it.
I recently contacted him and asked whether he had a copy of the catalogue: no, he sold all of them.

A.alnakkas · 29th July 2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One of a very well known dealers had in his catalogue a true Pala blade with a disproportionally long yataghan handle.
I am still kicking myself for not buying it.
I recently contacted him and asked whether he had a copy of the catalogue: no, he sold all of them.

Reminds me of the shashkas with pala blades in the Askeri museum

Richard G · 31st July 2015, 04:07 PM

I agree, Mr Alnakkas,
Swords, or saif, found either in what is now Saudi Arabia, or in photographs taken in what is now Saudi Arabia, seem to be of these two distinctive types, but never a hybrid of the two. I would imagine the two originate in distinctively different areas, i.e. the pala or kilij outside the Arabian peninsular, and the saif within, from Syria and Iraq, southward.
Regards
Richard

ariel · 1st August 2015, 01:42 PM

Marriages of unrelated blades and handles are older than dirt. After all, there were no " regulation patterns" and each owner was free to rev up his fantasies.

Miller in his book on Caucasian arms shows a marriage of a Khanda blade with a typical Georgian Khmali handle. CharlesS here had shown us multiple even crazier examples.

BTW, many of those mixed marriages last longer than those of their owners:-)

28th July 2015, 04:24 AM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Pala + Saif = ?? Hello everyone, I am wondering, does anyone actually have examples of Arabian Peninsula saif with a Pala blade? I havent seen a single one with the attractive Turkish blade. There are Syrian examples around, usually a rehilt with Iron fittings.. but no Saudi/gulf made examples so far.

28th July 2015, 04:08 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Here are two. Although I have seen others in Saudi museums (King Faisal swords) and others owned by collectors in KSA. Both blades are wootz. Attached Images

28th July 2015, 03:05 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, Could you post the Syrian examples? Never seen before... Are you sure that they are not fake? Best, Kubur

28th July 2015, 03:35 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An unusual sword. I've seen Pala blades correctly married in some unusual dress but that would be quite an unusual sword, quite far removed from the traditional form. Do you think it is more likely that you'd find a longer Ottoman kilij type blade of a more traditional profile before you'd find the broader Pala type within Arabian Peninsula. What are your thoughts on either. Have you seen longer blades with a yelman in this dress? Gavin

28th July 2015, 03:49 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Please, post your examples, thanks!

28th July 2015, 04:53 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thanks They are not Pala. They are Indian blades with Arabian hilts. Best, Kubur

28th July 2015, 06:57 PM	#9
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Hello Mr Alnakass, Certainly you can find early photographs of dignitaries in the Hejaz wearing what would probably now be described as a Turkish Killij. Obviously this is the Ottoman influence, but it seems to me that blades, now termed pala(s) were not uncommon in this area of what is now Saudi Arabia. Regards Richard

28th July 2015, 11:18 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	One of a very well known dealers had in his catalogue a true Pala blade with a disproportionally long yataghan handle. I am still kicking myself for not buying it. I recently contacted him and asked whether he had a copy of the catalogue: no, he sold all of them.

31st July 2015, 04:07 PM	#13
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	I agree, Mr Alnakkas, Swords, or saif, found either in what is now Saudi Arabia, or in photographs taken in what is now Saudi Arabia, seem to be of these two distinctive types, but never a hybrid of the two. I would imagine the two originate in distinctively different areas, i.e. the pala or kilij outside the Arabian peninsular, and the saif within, from Syria and Iraq, southward. Regards Richard

1st August 2015, 01:42 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marriages of unrelated blades and handles are older than dirt. After all, there were no " regulation patterns" and each owner was free to rev up his fantasies. Miller in his book on Caucasian arms shows a marriage of a Khanda blade with a typical Georgian Khmali handle. CharlesS here had shown us multiple even crazier examples. BTW, many of those mixed marriages last longer than those of their owners:-)