Algerian dagger?

[aspalathos]

Please I need some i fo about this dagger. Is this souvenir? How old can it be?

[Araña_del_Sol]

I cannot say whether or not your knife is a tourist/souvenir item but it does have similar motifs and stylistic elements as the flyssa of the Kabyle people in
Algeria. In a previous thread on this forum a similar knife was referred to as a "wedding nimcha" or "wedding flyssa" (second reference link below) which might suggest a ceremonial/status function for such knives.

- ADS

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa

[Pertinax]

In the example of this dagger we see the process of transformation of fleece and nimchi.

Camille Lacoste wrote in her work «Sabres Kabyles»:
…The monopoly of the Iflisen no longer exists. But a new clientele has arrived: the "travelers" of yesteryear, today's tourists, who have shown great love for such an original weapon. To satisfy this new clientele, it was necessary to get closer to the tourist routes. The production methods have changed: from the artisanal plan, they have moved to the "manufacturing" stage, often even working "wholesale", on behalf of dealers from Algeria.
Finally, the weapon itself has adapted to its new use. The amateur is little concerned with the functional properties of the weapon. He likes above all the "local color", the "decorativeness".
For about a century, the art of flissa has been in decline:
— The shape has gradually changed; the blades have become shorter, curved in the opposite direction (through the acquisition of new techniques...

…These are all the small knives and daggers made since around 1850 by the Beni-Fraoucen, and especially the Beni-Yenni, or, it seems, in Bou-Saada today.
In a different social context, the flissa no longer serves its purpose. Its owners have changed, its functional characteristics have disappeared; only certain morphological and decorative similarities remain.
The art of flissa has lost all rigor. These new objects are no longer the preserve of specialized artisans…

[Ian]

Pertinax, you have written a bleak requiem for the flyssa form. It seems that few flyssa we see on the market and in auctions today are of the traditional style and manufacture. The "wedding nimcha"/curved flyssa knives seem very common, while the older forms are getting harder to find and more expensive than ever. Caveat emptor.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Ian

Pertinax, you have written a bleak requiem for the flyssa form. It seems that few flyssa we see on the market and in auctions today are of the traditional style and manufacture. The "wedding nimcha"/curved flyssa knives seem very common, while the older forms are getting harder to find and more expensive than ever. Caveat emptor.

This requiem was not written by me, but by Camille Lacoste.
My opinion is that only a small number of genuine Kabyle fleeces have reached us. Everything else was made "based on" after 1850 and it is very difficult to determine "who is who".

[fennec]

Hi mates, your algerian/french blacksmith here with you !

This is what I call a "curved flissa dagger", by opposition to the straight ones, that are mostly, in my thought, real weapons. Those ones used to be called "flissa de mariage" due to their use for ceremonies, actually also for some dignitaries, or religious/important people. lot of difference between them, even for some same age models, straight are the smaller copy of a flissa saber, no guard, a thick forged bolster, the classic brass covered wooden "zoomorphic" handle, etc... those are real knives. But even in curved ones, has some exception, that took that same style, no guard, big bolster, etc.. those are few, but I think that are also genuine weapons (also sometimes a good quality steel).
SO WHAT ABOUT THIS ONE ? Well, this is a bit more complex than Camille LACOSTE wrote in her book, for the simple reason that she was not algerian, and only refers to what french saw after colonisation, so after 1830. But lot of those curved models are from this era, or even before. If a lot of those ones are clearly made for tourism (late time of colonisation), they are obviously herited from another kind of daggers, probably more close to a khandjar, under ottoman era (lot of pictures, painting to proov that), that has already that "nimcha" handle shape, but on a smaller sword.
So what about the iflissen ? As mentionned by PERTINAX, those ARE NOT the only, and probably even not the ones who made the flissa (remember that even this name is given by french.. algerian only call that a saber). So if there is here obviously some KABYLE heritage in the craftmanship, this kind of dagger has actually not a lot of thing to deal with a flissa, and as mentionned, a lot of them where made in the south, in Bousaada, another big pole of algerian cutlery (cf khodmi bousaadi).

WELL, BUT THIS MODEL PARTICULARLY, is very, very rare... keep it safe !! You have here the typical "filigrane" work, that made famous the tribe of AITH YENI from kabylie . They where mentionned by LACOSTE as another source of flissa making, but those are actually great jewelers (introduced sylver in the south, and many skills, even to touaregs for centuries) and masters in metal work, so they obvioulsy became more productive for those prestigious models. They sometimes only made a mount for an already forged sword, to add more luxury to it.
Well, sorry if Im not very clear, but I hope I will be in my incoming book about algerian weapons (huh... 2 yrs and still struggling ), but just to say, that if a lot of collector place those models in "decorativ" place, nothing say that they wasn't used by their first owner as real defensive weapons... just remember than before 1830 (so before french, and actually maybe not before 1903, when "algeria was pacified"), NOTHING, was "only" decorativ.

Here is some pictures from mine, the daggers are mine, and will be well detailled in my book inshallah

The set that display that same kind of work is sold by an auction house Ive asked for permission for my book, so please people dont share.., and obvioulsy algerian (note those 3 straigh flissa daggers), is to show that this work, dont necessary mean a "decorative" weapon, but just, in this era of algeria, a prestigious one.

Best regards

[fennec]

just some more details..
In algerian cutlery, a different style, dont mean that the craftsman dont know the previous skill, or is going original. I mean, as for curves "flissa" daggers for exemple, the case of the decorations/inlays is interesting. You will NEVER, or very rarely, find the "classic decorativ scheme" of a flissa (succession of brass inlayed/carved triangles, with an upper and under brass inlayed line, with classic engravings on the brass, etc etc... ).
The decorative scheme, follow a kind of weapon, and this is something I've noticed in 90% of the flissas words ive studies. For exemple (have to make a post about that..) I classify flissa sabers in two parts. the long classic ones, and the "short" ones, I call "boarding flissa" (for many reasons, their possible use, area, period, shape, etc). I think some of you here see what I mean... So, for those ones, you can notice that the decorative scheme is actually always different, than the classic triangles... generally more floral shapes.

So, to come back to those curved flissa daggers, we have the same cases here. Thoses particular models, are the only ones from the algerian cutlery, that display that brass OVERLAY, or thin soldering, exactly in the ottoman form for the yatagans. This is clearly another skill AIT YENI took to jewelry, but this also give to those swords another kind of use/purpose, than the classics common ones. You can notice on this one I show you here, another typical skill from kabyle jewelry of AIT YENI, is the colored enamel, also unique in algeria (and probably africa).

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by fennec

just some more details..
In algerian cutlery, a different style, dont mean that the craftsman dont know the previous skill, or is going original. I mean, as for curves "flissa" daggers for exemple, the case of the decorations/inlays is interesting. You will NEVER, or very rarely, find the "classic decorativ scheme" of a flissa (succession of brass inlayed/carved triangles, with an upper and under brass inlayed line, with classic engravings on the brass, etc etc... ).
The decorative scheme, follow a kind of weapon, and this is something I've noticed in 90% of the flissas words ive studies. For exemple (have to make a post about that..) I classify flissa sabers in two parts. the long classic ones, and the "short" ones, I call "boarding flissa" (for many reasons, their possible use, area, period, shape, etc). I think some of you here see what I mean... So, for those ones, you can notice that the decorative scheme is actually always different, than the classic triangles... generally more floral shapes.

So, to come back to those curved flissa daggers, we have the same cases here. Thoses particular models, are the only ones from the algerian cutlery, that display that brass OVERLAY, or thin soldering, exactly in the ottoman form for the yatagans. This is clearly another skill AIT YENI took to jewelry, but this also give to those swords another kind of use/purpose, than the classics common ones. You can notice on this one I show you here, another typical skill from kabyle jewelry of AIT YENI, is the colored enamel, also unique in algeria (and probably africa).

Thanks fennec for the info. Do you have any examples of fleece daggers before 1850?

Best regards,
Yuri

[Jim McDougall]

Yuri excellent observations! and Fennic amazing insights into these forms, I look forward to your book as there is precious little material for those of us here in the west to study these arms in any great consequence.

As noted, these type daggers have always it seems been termed 'wedding daggers' and as common by westerners placed in the souvenir category in accord with their supposed ceremonial function. These kinds of notions gain substantial credence in the colorful narratives of travelers and that sort of adventure literature, but of course often have little to do with the true character of various forms from Berber and Saharan regions.
Here I would note that the character of the hilt pommel being in the form of the 'nimcha' swords, which date well back in the 17th century, suggest these hilt forms existed long before the familiar Kabyle flyssa (c.1827).

While I cannot claim any expertise on these weapons, I had a keen interest in the Kabyle 'flyssa' many years ago. These swords of course have distinct character and seem to have a range in sizes, but the curious indiscernible 'zoomorphic' (?) hilt, guardless, and the typical Byzantine oriented and linear fibula designs overall are consistent.

These swords are indiginous to the Algerian regions of Kabylia, and as far as known in records, the 'term' flyssa does not seem to occur before about 1827, and is believed to derive from the 'Flyssen' tribe first associated by observers with these swords.
As has been noted by Yuri, LaCoste, in one of the only works tending to these swords, suggests that as a form, these flyssa deteriorated notably after 1850s. One of the earliest examples I ever found was in the French Foreign Legion museum in Paris of the familiar form.

The example I have (attached) is characteristic, and the extremely long and quite heavy blade is in my opinion very poorly balanced in accord with the small brass guardless hilt. The hilt and blade designs are basically of the same style as traditional examples, however there is an unusual device which I think is a drum. These kinds of personalized elements seem to reflect what I have been told on the flyssa...it was a key object in a young mans rite of passage into manhood. Each reflected this personalized character in some manner.

With that, and in accord with notes in this discussion on whether weapons were for use or decoration...., I have never seen any satisfactory evidence or accounts of the flyssa used in battle. There are images of Kabyle warriors holding them along with guns in posed positions, but I have never heard anything on how these weapons could be used.

I would be grateful for any substantiated evidence that the flyssa itself was EVER used in battle.

That said, truth be told, in all edged weapons, the percentages of the sum of all produced which were actually used as intended seem relatively small. This topic of course would take a huge amount of space and time as the variables and dynamics are more than formidable.

Returning to the dagger in original post, and these so called wedding daggers, the characteristic 'nimcha' style hilt pommel is notable and as Yuri notes, rather a Maghrebi combining of forms. The more collective presence of the nimcha swords which covered Berber tribal groups from Algeria into Morocco seems of course to factor these daggers into a more 'Saharan' denominator.

Kabyle flyssa traditional form three pics, the typical apotropaic linear fibula motof; the individual design (drum?)

The Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) far right, note hilt design in vogue for centuries (Buttin, 1933, notes many examples shown as 17thc)

[DaveA]

Excellent info on the flyssa and context. Thank you for posting. This is exactly why I joined the forum — to learn from experts.

[fennec]

Hi Jim, happy that my theories find some logic to your ears ! You right when you say that the subject is wide, actually, Ive begun this book 3years ago.. finished the text part one year ago, after many searches, sword analysis etc... for one year I'm on the picture part, very hard to obtain some of very particular models of knives swords etc... and also trying not to "copy" the work of other expert, to add some new views... but its pretty hard as I still make discoveries, or new theories, that some contradict some others, etc... so sorry by advance if sometimes my talk look a bit hard to confirm.

Well, about flissas... NO, those are clearly not decoratives objects.. even the one you have. I my thought, those models, like yours, that I have one too, where probably "mass made" by some other kabyle families that the smiths ones (actually, not only iflissen, but many areas) in the late era of free algeria (before, or maybe at firsts times of colonisation. The "quality" off steel, as a blacksmith, also lead to to that point, because of a more "shiny" steel than olders model, not only because of rust, but composition (may be less carbon, as noticed Lacoste, or more modern steels with more chrome or I dont know what, but not for making swords obviously). But I dont think that the initial aim was to make them decorative, but I think that is just not their work. I actually guess, basing on some Lacoste book parts too, that those ones are made by the kabyle jewelers as the Ait YENI for exemples. Most of them where also in some weapons skills, as Moukhala, riffles etc... but here again, making a lock for a riffle, is really another work, than making a long, very long sword. Sorry for all that talk, but I actully want to mean that those models, are for me more "late unused weapons" and probably badly made, at an era where colonisers, came with way more usefull swords (as french cavalry ones). And if you wondering why the flissa became like that, is probably for the same reasons... The really usefull flissa, as you said, are few... I dont think a lot of kabyle tribe was really knowing the skills (condording to lacoste and other sources) and many tried to copy them. The original makers, allso probably let the flissa making, for some more "modern" models, as the yatagan, the nimcha, and many curved sabers from islamic inspirations, and even foreign swords (really more attractive for a smith... than passing many days to shape one in some modest local steels).

Whtat dont says Lacoste, and really surprised me, is that many very olders models than yours, from 18century (dated by many way, the look first of all, way more used to be from french era, but also the skills apply on them, or even the way they came to us /first french military took etc...) are very good quality steel swords, and, BE READY , some have a differential hardess, confirmed by many acid bath, grinding, hardness test, etc.... I MEAN, the cutting edge, is harder than the body, as for may swords at this era (especially ottoman... that where in algeria too.. even if, those ottoman, where not firtly craftsmans but janissaries, that connection gived a lot to the algerian skills of that era, as everybody knows, with some algerian yatagan etc...).

SO, (and sorry if I talk too much... but hehe, that my dream subject lol), those models are clearly battle swords, those are usally shorter, lighter, most of them have less inlay, replaced by more engravings, giving usually more curved and floral shapes). I cant be absolutely categorical, but one of mine is probably sanmai made, and harder steel core, and softer steel sides, as is many yatagans, even made in algeria, so by the exact same "tribes". As Ive said, those flissa are way more smaller, I call them "boarding" flissa, as I supposed them made for (actually, iflissen where also known as pirates). If you look to the "mansfield collection" you will find very stunning models of those.
So know, what about the long ones ??? Just another tool, another weapon, and probably way more rare at this era. I suppose that because of its lenght, it was not the favorite one, but also known and reputed (I have here a very usefull model, still heavy, approcahing 1000g/ more than 1m, but well balanced, very thin tip as an italian saber, or a pala, not this thick spine of the other model, and also look way more older).

About the "cartouche".
its not something unusual, and neither only on those late swords. I have here another kind of flissa (I actually made 4 cathegories of straight flissa sword, "long straight" classic ones, "boarding ones", "cavalry ones", "yatagan shape".. the names only refer to a shape, not nececerly to their use).
I call those ones "cavalry" flissa because of the recurrence of many models like that. Those are usually like a very long flissa knife, less curves, and way more light sword. You can notice the willing of making a "real other weapon" in kabyle arts, by the decorations, skills etc. On those ones, you have NO decorations in the sword, but the cartouche. Mine is a very good sabe (860mm / 693g) that is really used for battle, many strokes on the cutting edge, deformed saber, etc...
And it has the exact same kind of cartouche.
You right, it could be a drum, as it is the only "war intrument" used by muslim people, or even the locals culture. But I've also find a lot of meanings in stars, sky etc... As it was a big part of the local beliefs (cardinal points, east west north south, some like tourag "star/cross", etc).

Sorry I'm writting this without really time, so still a lot of things to say, I'll post more later, escpecially about relations with nimcha.

I notice that my talk goes in many ways so sorry if its a bit confused, I'll make better later.
HEre is 3 pictures, 2 of the "cavalry" model that shows the same cartouche than yours, a detail showing 3 of these kind on various swords, and finally my long "usefull" flissa.

[fennec]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Thanks fennec for the info. Do you have any examples of fleece daggers before 1850?

Best regards,
Yuri

Yep mate, actually, I guess that a lot of those staight knives, are clearly from before 1830, and many things can proov that. First of all, a lot where tooken in the very few times of colonisation on algeria, but the tourists models actually made a lot of time to exist, after algeria was "pacified" (for the north..).
You can also notice that set displayed upper, is a pure "ottoman era" work, probably for someone important etc.. but not a tourist. A tourist will buy a beautifull sword, and well deocrated set, but here, is a WAR sword, with two usefull guns. Clearly the habitual set of ottman era. So the knives are obvioulsy from same period (pobably not very old, but before france, and not decorative). Even the arabic sentences are directly in relation with battle war etc, mentionning Allah etc... not the kinds of things we made later for tourists.

However, I also have this beautifull baby, that I think is even older that those ones.. I'll try to find you some other models soon

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by fennec

Yep mate, actually, I guess that a lot of those staight knives, are clearly from before 1830, and many things can proov that. First of all, a lot where tooken in the very few times of colonisation on algeria, but the tourists models actually made a lot of time to exist, after algeria was "pacified" (for the north..).
You can also notice that set displayed upper, is a pure "ottoman era" work, probably for someone important etc.. but not a tourist. A tourist will buy a beautifull sword, and well deocrated set, but here, is a WAR sword, with two usefull guns. Clearly the habitual set of ottman era. So the knives are obvioulsy from same period (pobably not very old, but before france, and not decorative). Even the arabic sentences are directly in relation with battle war etc, mentionning Allah etc... not the kinds of things we made later for tourists.

However, I also have this beautifull baby, that I think is even older that those ones.. I'll try to find you some other models soon

Hi fennec!

I didn't ask about the Kabyle daggers for no reason.

K. Lacoste notes:

- Only a few types of bladed weapons fall into the category of daggers. Some of them are even practically unusable, the handle is not even the size of a small palm.

- As for the use of this weapon, it is undoubtedly a secondary or additional weapon. We can also ask ourselves whether they were created recently, in which case their small size would make them preferable to large ones, but this is only a hypothesis.

I completely agree with her on this issue. An example is my specimen. Total length - 395 mm, blade length - 300 mm, handle (from blade to head) - 70 mm. The blade is made of fairly decent steel, quite functional, well suited for both cutting and stabbing. But the length of the handle does not allow it to be used practically.

Kabyle daggers are not mentioned in the sources and this is very strange. Perhaps this is due to the fact that, unlike the khanjar, jambiya or kummiya, the fleece dagger/knife is not part of the national costume. But such a type of weapon must be!

Sincerely,
Yuri

[werecow]

Does that 7cm include the pommel? My palms are about 7cm across. It may just have been made for someone with small hands.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by werecow

Does that 7cm include the pommel? My palms are about 7cm across. It may just have been made for someone with small hands.

The length of the handle without the pommel is 7 cm, I also have a narrow palm - 9 cm and it is very uncomfortable to hold the dagger in my hand. Such small handles are on almost all Kabyle daggers. What is this - a souvenir, a product for tourists?

[werecow]

I think you're underestimating your own hand size!

It could have been made for a boy perhaps, or just someone with smaller hands like mine. Mine is 8.5cm and it leaves me with at least a cm of unneeded space (probably more like 1.5). 7cm would most likely be OK for me.

[Pertinax]

I evaluate everything adequately and it is not for nothing that I quoted K. Lacoste. She does not have an answer to the question about the size of the dagger handles.

I will also add - any knife and dagger, in addition to combat use, is used for purely domestic needs, and therefore must be convenient to use. This is not observed here, beautiful - yes, but extremely inconvenient in practical use.

That is why I would like to see a dagger before 1850.