Pre Culloden English dragoon basket hilt?

[Jim McDougall]

In researching this simple basket hilt, there are a number of perplexing details which make it difficult to identify and date. As far as its character as a 'basket hilt' the simple and undecorated shields suggest it is English, but the guard is attached to the pommel through slotted entry rather than the ring usually under the pommel in English versions.

The pommel seems of the low dome type c. 1710-20s?

The blade is of the single edge, back fuller type familiar on English hangers in early to mid 18th c. Here is another perplexing detail, there is what appears to be a fluer de lis in blade center. While naturally first thoughts are that this must be a French blade.
As Prince Charlie's forces were assembling in France pre-Culloden, it is tempting to think of this being a weapon with blade from the Paris arsenal etc. However, we know that the fluer de lis was also used on English blades.

In the 1894 work on "Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" by Lord Archibald Campbell, the fluer de lis is among markings found on some of the blades of the 190 swords recovered from the field in 1746.

In Bezdek's book on Scottish & English sword makers, there is an English basket hilt shown c.1650 with a guard system resembling the possible prototypes for the Glasgow hilts.

Is it possible this is an early English basket hilt from some of the units developed for the British army in early 18th century, and by garrison town makers following standard Scottish convention?
When exactly did the 'pommel ring' typically regarded as 'English' begin use? It seems they are characteristically regarded as mid 18th, but some basket hilts 1720s-30s have them.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, that is a cool hilt. It is symmetrical, which, if I remember correctly, was a later style more suited to the gloved hands of the English than the bare clan hands.
Apart from embellishments and decoration it is virtually the same as later Glasgow style minus the wrist guard.
The French ingredient definitely adds towards pre. Culloden.
I am really inexperienced once I move outside of my specialty subject but I am learning, nevertheless, feel free to disabuse my fanciful notions.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hey Jim, that is a cool hilt. It is symmetrical, which, if I remember correctly, was a later style more suited to the gloved hands of the English than the bare clan hands.
Apart from embellishments and decoration it is virtually the same as later Glasgow style minus the wrist guard.
The French ingredient definitely adds towards pre. Culloden.
I am really inexperienced once I move outside of my specialty subject but I am learning, nevertheless, feel free to disabuse my fanciful notions.

Not at all fanciful Keith! but well observed. Thank you for coming in on this. Its another sword Ive had for half a century, and never focused on getting to the bottom of its secrets. Now that it is bucket list time, I can see many possibilities and this field of study is most arcane and formidable, but ready to learn as well!

[werecow]

I have very little expertise in this area but I just want to point out the bars that might get in the way of a saber grip, which in my very limited exposure to these swords (mostly via Matt Easton) might imply something about their dating, although I'm not sure what.

Did I qualify that enough? #impostorsyndrome

Well, I guess that wasn't very useful was it.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I have very little expertise in this area but I just want to point out the bars that might get in the way of a saber grip, which in my very limited exposure to these swords (mostly via Matt Easton) might imply something about their dating, although I'm not sure what.

Did I qualify that enough? #impostorsyndrome

Well, I guess that wasn't very useful was it.

I appreciate any input believe me, so thank you!
Im not sure what is meant by saber grip though.
Mostly its hilt features, for example the guard on this has saltire bars keyed to the pommel rather than the ring attached to guard and sitting below pommel.
That suggests this hilt dates c. 1710-30 roughly.
As noted, material on these basket hilts is pretty scattered in numbers of articles etc in sometimes obscure sources.

[werecow]

I did a bit of searching and I think this is the video that I had a vague recollection of:

https://youtu.be/aQKNy7ze2jQ?t=222

He talks about the angle at which the arms of the basket hilt join at the pommel and how that changed in the Victorian era from earlier swords. But I guess this is more relevant to dating later basket hilts.

[urbanspaceman]

My thoughts too regarding Matt's comments on sabre grip.
I was a later change if I remember correctly.
Well done, Werecow.

[Jim McDougall]

I cant get sound in computer so unable to follow video, could you guys walk me through...

[werecow]

You can use the subtitles.

I've attached the full subtitle file for the video as txt. The relevant bits (keep in mind that these are auto-generated by youtube using speech recognition):

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but coming back to the point

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of holding it what's the fundamental

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problem with holding a basket hilt

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well this varies slightly depending on

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the size of the basket the length of the

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hilt the style of the pummel blah blah

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blah

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various reasons but fundamentally if

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you're used to holding it like a sable

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with the thumb up you usually don't have

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space to in a basket hilt although some

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do

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and therefore it makes it more difficult

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to align the point for a dir direct uh

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thrust or lunge

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thrust with the lunge rather

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so it can make thrusting a little bit

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more inconvenient for someone who's

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trained in for example small sword and

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spadrone methods which you can apply to

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saber

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and additionally it does mean now if we

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specifically come down to these two

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sidebars at the bottom here it does mean

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that those two bars do when you extend

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the sword fully out will clash with the

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bottom of the hand to some extent and

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this does arguably perhaps lead you to

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cutting in a style which is more similar

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to certain for example viking era swords

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or indeed talwars and things like this

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where you leave an angle between the

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blade and the sword and again i've

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talked about these in previous videos so

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i'm not going to labor those points but

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specifically in the victorian area we

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start to see concessions start to be

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made to baskets

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to enable someone to use them more how

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they were trained to use a saber and it

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should be mentioned that the same

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manuals were applied to these as were

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applied to saber there weren't separate

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manuals for basket hills for highland

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officers there weren't enough of them to

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really warrant that being

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economical indeed they were expected to

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use the exact same saber method that you

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used sabers with now

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these sidebars start to go through an

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adaptation in the 19th century that we

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see and we do occasionally see this

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earlier and i've shown earlier

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period tools that sometimes have this

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and in fact something like a schiavona

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or a 1788 pattern heavy cavalry hilt

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gets around this by having these

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sidebars instead of joining the pommel

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as is the scottish fashion down here

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they actually all converge at the front

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and join at the front if that happens

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you can now hold the sword like a saber

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in something with the thumb up more like

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a sort of almost a pistol grip which you

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can't really do conveniently with this

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sword but you will notice that these

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sidebars here

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don't

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come in at 90 degrees as earlier ones

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tend to do and in fact even if we go to

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an english mortuary hilted sword of the

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17th century then they tend to connect

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at the side at 90 degrees and that

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prevents you extending the side of the

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hand along the side of the pommel

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because it's blocked by that bar there

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and you'll notice that these bars now

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are starting to come down at more of an

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angle this is a wilkinson example

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from the 1850s now if i swap over to

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this other example by an unknown maker

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you will notice if i just lift the

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tassel up which is part of that you will

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notice on this example they've gone even

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further with it

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and now the bars are connecting really

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quite near the front here and that means

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that the side of the pommel if i can

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just get it to focus there we go the

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side of the pommel there is now clear

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which means indeed that i can start to

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hold this sword at an angle more like

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that because it's now got space for my

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hand to pass at the side of the pommel

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so that's one solution and this is

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essentially a victorian adaptation to

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make the highland basket hilt more

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usable for people who were more used to

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using sabers for example or perhaps even

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spadroons

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. I was mistaken... Matt was talking about a transition in the Victorian period when basket hilt and sabre were the same fighting technique, so concessions were made to facilitate the sabre style grip with a basket hilt which meant opening up the side bars.
Obviously this doesn't apply to your sword.
You might have look at hilt development over the period to see how the side bars developed as yours do seem wider.

[Jim McDougall]

In searching through "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (George Neumann, 1973) I found this nearly exact match to this hilt.

As it is suggested the date period 1680-1710 it well might be that it may have been part of a production of hilts for the Highland units formed into the British army. It is known they were supplied with 'Highland hilts', and it is notable that the Scottish convention of the arms of the guard keyed into the slotted pommel is present.

On my example the blade seems more into 18th century perhaps 1715-20? as it is straight with back fuller, and has what appears to be a fluer de lis at center. While the question of whether the fluer de lis was used on English blades remains unanswered, it is notable that many French blades of these times did have a fluer de lis, presumably a state arsenal mark?