Schiavona pommel

[urbanspaceman]

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
Attachment 245457

This is a great question!! and always exciting to see there are still those of us who ask these things! It seems too many collectors dont think these things worth noticing

The schiavona history is far much more complex and evolutionary than typically realized, and that it was not just used in Venice. This type of hilt with variation of complexity in the trellis style basket guard evolved in the early 17th century.

The example shown from the Ferguson clan of Scotland has a blade dated 1611, clearly a heirloom blade outside the typical period of the hilt. Note the ring, which is to attach the trellis guard to the pommel. The curl at the terminal of the basket near the pommel is a design feature primarily and havent seen one used to hold a ring, interesting idea though.

The connecting ring was not a consistent feature as far as I know, but the idea that it may have become a vestigial thing is interesting.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
Attachment 245457

The hole in the pommel is indeed intended to attach the guard hook , not all pommels have this hole.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

[urbanspaceman]

In regard to the leather wrap: it allows fingers to wrap comfortably around the upper ricasso (no thumb ring), but it may well have been a rain-guard that has been foreshortened.
Any suggestions?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

[urbanspaceman]

The hilt I am referring to is image 245457 in post #1

[werecow]

The description also notes that the guard is somewhat loose. Multiple anomalies... I wonder if there's shenanigans. The provenance seems OK though.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

But presumably the hole was used for something... Isn't it in the wrong place for the ring attaching it to the guard?

[M ELEY]

Thank you Keith for that fascinating information concerning the Border Reivers carrying these sword types! I was unaware of that. My grandmother was a 'Young', descended from the Clan Young in SW Scotland, 'Reiver Country'!

[urbanspaceman]

My maternal ancestors were Grahams: not a bunch you wanted to tangle with; ask any local Armstrong or Robson - of which there are many. Oddly enough, during my musical career (as a leader of multiple bands) both those clan descendants were often present and invariable proved troublesome.
There is an article by Jeffrey Ross that I will attach regarding the development of baskets. I am assuming it is permitted to disseminate this work; I know I am happy for my Shotley Bridge book to be freely available in pdf form; just ask and it shall be yours, as I have digitally compressed it for screen viewing and emailing.
It seems - Europe wide - all baskets followed progressively on from cruciform hilts. I also understand early baskets over here were regarded as Irish and were, initially, largely asymmetric, rapidly developing into full baskets but also remaining as asymmetrical Mortuary swords. The asymmetric hilts were, obviously, not left behind as the complete basket evolved.
None of this explains that hole in the pommel of my initial image posting though.

[urbanspaceman]

oops, forgot to attach the article
Evolution-of-the-basket-hilted-sword-form-the-16th-to-18th-centuries-ROSS-vol-123.pdf

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

It is because its composite, the pommel is turned around and belonged to another schiavona. Now it may well be that this pommel was changed during working life or later.
The wide leather over the ricasso these are rain gaurds, the schiavona was not meanth to be used in a pistol pointing finger forward grip like the rapier.
If you have handled several schiavones and tried this grip you will understand what i mean, its obvious.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

But the ring usually attaches to the top corner of the pommel, not the bottom corner, right?

[werecow]

Perhaps this is of interest: Found this very similar example here. With an almost identical pommel, similar guard, and another blade with a waisted ricasso.

Schiavon from the funds of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore.

[urbanspaceman]

As it happens, I have a schiavona with a broad rapier blade and, although this hilt does have a thumb ring, it also feels quite comfortable wrapping a finger over the cross-guard. It would be more comfortable again if it was leather wrapped.
And even more again if it had a wasted ricasso.
Rain-guards are not uncommon though; quite right..


ps
That is the signature of the hilt smith: Grgr

[urbanspaceman]

Apologies, it is GRGUR
You may find longer version of this inscription: "Grgur majstor" - meaning Gregory artisan - indicating local hilt production in Dalmatia.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

As it happens, I have a schiavona with a broad rapier blade and, although this hilt does have a thumb ring, it also feels quite comfortable wrapping a finger over the cross-guard. It would be more comfortable again if it was leather wrapped.
And even more again if it had a wasted ricasso.
Rain-guards are not uncommon though; quite right..
Attachment 245465
Attachment 245466 Attachment 245467
ps
That is the signature of the hilt smith: Grgr

that is because that schiavona has a typical rapier blade wich is about more 2 cm narow than most schiavona blades. The more schiavonas you have held in your hand the better you can judge them.
I think i need to comment as it is, the schiavona you have with the rapier blade is not the norm, in fact the chances that its composite are high , not absolute but highly probable. Most schiavonas have broader blades almost twice as broad as yours , now if you are making asumptions from an item that is not the norm that is going to lead to conclusions that are not the norm. Exeptions have there place but need to be recognised for what they are and examined from that point of view.

[urbanspaceman]

I absolutely agree it is a composite.
In truth, the schiavona I always wanted featured a very broad double edged blade with a broad fuller or multiple fullers.
Somebody out there may recognize one of these.


The attraction of my sword blade was that hilt made me suspect that GRGUR was specifically commissioned to hilt that rapier blade and not that it was all simply put together by any random smith with any available suitable parts.
The quality of the blade and the significance of the markings at the ricasso were what made me think that. It has been suggested that those markings refer to the Circle of Twelve, but I haven't been able to figure out what that means. Were they the bodyguard of the Doge (No, not Elon!)
I'd still rather have my initial specification, but acquiring one in this fine condition did not prove possible at the time when this appeared.

[urbanspaceman]

I've been searching for my perfect schiavona and while this ticks all the boxes, except for museum quality, it has another feature that marks it as exceptional:

It would appear that there is absolutely no fixed rule regarding the hole, its position and/or its use.

fascinating stuff!

[ulfberth]

the use of the hole is to attach the guard , i would not buy a shiavona with an exact blade as in your picture because that is a 19th c blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid you have me confused. Which is a 19thC blade?

[ulfberth]

the last schiavona you posted

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the last schiavona you posted

That is a surprise!
I am still learning. Any possibility you could explain what indicates its age? To my inexperienced eye it looks just like the earlier images I posted (one of which was yours, by-the-way).

[Triarii]

My Schiavona has a waisted ricasso with leather cover. Its made me think what the scabbard would butt up against. Likely the chamfered end of the blade just before the waisted section I suppose.

[Jim McDougall]

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.


Images previously posted, blades referenced,
a kaskara with familiar central tri fuller ,blades often termed masri in Sudan, in cases where native smiths, usually Hausa, copied European examples.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.

Jim has already explained it , as he has shown above the two shiavona's are fitted with 19th c kaskara blades made in Germany " spot on Jim !"
That specific form and shape of blade and cross section was not used in the 16the and 17th c , there were similar looking blades but there are major differences for the experienced collector.
It this particular schiavona that came from my collection but it has a totaly different blade

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Ulfberth. You sent me this photo of 3 swords from your collection.
The center one really took my fancy.
I mistook the kaskara blade for a similar type, but looking closely at your sword, with its full length broad fuller, appears an altogether different beast... and still my favourite.

[ulfberth]

Thank you , that was one of the widest blades ive ever had in a schiavona and still the ballence was great , obviously more suited for cutting and slashing.
The ones fitted with kaskara blades tend to feel to heay and have no ballance that feels like leading to a function, if you could hold them in your hands one after the other the difference in feel of ballance is huge.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Thank you , that was one of the widest blades ive ever had in a schiavona and still the ballence was great , obviously more suited for cutting and slashing.

That one really hits my sweet spot! The lightly decorated type 2 guard with those chiseled lines, the broad, wide fullered blade, the cats head pommel. I drooled a little. Currently slowly but steadily gathering funds for something similar when it shows up.

(Although the kilij I bought recently probably delayed me by a bit again, because of course I have no self control to speak of. )