Modified Medieval Era Dagger Identification

DawnST · 15th June 2016, 08:37 PM

This piece is listed as being found in Germany and is supposedly a lance head from the medieval era. However, I have doubts about this, and I’d like to know more about what type of weapon it is and when it might have been made. It is 35.5 cm long with a 21.5 cm long blade. It has a square blade, with a perpendicular cross guard. It also has a large socket for being inserted on to a pole. It looks like it might have been modified to include the cross guard and socket; you can clearly see the separation of metals where it looks like a sheet of metal was overlapped and wrapped around the end to form the socket. Research has suggested that it’s too short to be an ahlspiess (awl pike), and the long thin cross guard seems unusual for a pole arm. I’m wondering if it might be a modified stiletto dagger (explaining the square blade), or a shorted awl pike (with an odd cross guard since they usually seem to be round). Has anyone come across something similar?

Robert · 16th June 2016, 05:02 AM

As I believe that you will have a much better chance of having your questions on this piece answered in a different section of our forum I am moving this thread to the European Armoury.

Best,
Robert

fernando · 16th June 2016, 01:01 PM

Welcome to the forum, Dawn

.
Peculiar piece indeed . Surely intended to be a weapon, in any case.
Wether a medieval setup and of what (sort of) typology, let us hope some knowledged member comes up with a perspective.

RobertGuy · 16th June 2016, 03:16 PM

Boar spear?

Shakethetrees · 16th June 2016, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Boar spear?

That would be a possibility, but a boar spear usually has a sharpened blade and a slot through which a peg is inserted. A spike won't do enough damage to stop a boar in its tracks. Unless something vital is pierced, you'll have one angry, pissed off critter charging you, and you won't get a second chance at it.

But, I think a lot of weapons that do not easily fit into any particular category comfortably are made in an ad hoc manner by local blacksmiths responding to a particular need, materials availability, or specific customer request.

Hard to pin down any date/place of manufacture, but these have always been fascinating to me.

Helleri · 18th June 2016, 02:50 AM

Looks to be some fashion of pike. Though I've not seen anything quite like that. The nearest equivalent that comes to my mind is an awl pike/Ahlspiess (Swiss). But awl pikes have disc guards. Pikes with symmetrical additional spikes are invariably up-swept or up-curved to my knowledge. The same goes for the closely related military fork. So I would say it is a pike. But beyond that it's hard for me to say anything more specific (even hard to say that it is a weapon). It does look cheaply made. So it could just be someones experiment. But new variations of pikes, military forks, halberds, and polearms in general pop up all the time. So much so that every new one makes things harder to categorize.

15th June 2016, 08:37 PM	#1
DawnST Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 3	Modified Medieval Era Dagger Identification This piece is listed as being found in Germany and is supposedly a lance head from the medieval era. However, I have doubts about this, and I’d like to know more about what type of weapon it is and when it might have been made. It is 35.5 cm long with a 21.5 cm long blade. It has a square blade, with a perpendicular cross guard. It also has a large socket for being inserted on to a pole. It looks like it might have been modified to include the cross guard and socket; you can clearly see the separation of metals where it looks like a sheet of metal was overlapped and wrapped around the end to form the socket. Research has suggested that it’s too short to be an ahlspiess (awl pike), and the long thin cross guard seems unusual for a pole arm. I’m wondering if it might be a modified stiletto dagger (explaining the square blade), or a shorted awl pike (with an odd cross guard since they usually seem to be round). Has anyone come across something similar? Attached Images

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16th June 2016, 05:02 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	As I believe that you will have a much better chance of having your questions on this piece answered in a different section of our forum I am moving this thread to the European Armoury. Best, Robert

16th June 2016, 01:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Dawn . Peculiar piece indeed . Surely intended to be a weapon, in any case. Wether a medieval setup and of what (sort of) typology, let us hope some knowledged member comes up with a perspective.

16th June 2016, 03:16 PM	#4
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Boar spear?

18th June 2016, 02:50 AM	#6
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Looks to be some fashion of pike. Though I've not seen anything quite like that. The nearest equivalent that comes to my mind is an awl pike/Ahlspiess (Swiss). But awl pikes have disc guards. Pikes with symmetrical additional spikes are invariably up-swept or up-curved to my knowledge. The same goes for the closely related military fork. So I would say it is a pike. But beyond that it's hard for me to say anything more specific (even hard to say that it is a weapon). It does look cheaply made. So it could just be someones experiment. But new variations of pikes, military forks, halberds, and polearms in general pop up all the time. So much so that every new one makes things harder to categorize.