For those who like Oriental stuff

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 06:13 PM

These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown.
They belonged to the collection of General Antonio Joaquim Garcia, whose career was totally spent in Timor and Macau, as a Comander and as a Governor.
In my ignorant view, these pieces were acquired or presented in one of these places, more likely in Macau, but i wonder why the guys at the museum are not able to reach this or a different assumption, being these so much characterized specimens.
Any ideas ?
Fernando

spiral · 22nd November 2007, 07:18 PM

I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...}

They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think?

A Tibetan style Dorje & spear?

& the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none.

I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also.....

Spiral

ariel · 22nd November 2007, 07:40 PM

The impaled cow looks hilarious

I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

Philip · 22nd November 2007, 08:05 PM

These belong to a set of pole arms commonly seen in Chinese and Vietnamese temples. Usually, there is a rack of eight on each side of the altar in the main sanctuary. They are supposed to be for the use of the guardian spirits of the shrine (in Buddhist temples, guardian statues are often seen in pairs at the entryway, usually standing in martial arts poses with clenched fists, or holding maces).

The heads of the pole arms are patterned after various types of spears, glaives, battle-axes, and even maces. In Vietnam, one often sees long two-handed sabers (guom truong) in these panoplies.

The "weapons" are of various materials, most often of brass, sometimes of gilt and lacquered wood. They vary in quality according to the wealth of the temple's congregation. I've seen matched sets in fine gilt brass with the temple's name engraved on each. (some have ended up minus their poles, mounted on display pedestals at oriental art fairs, with some pretty fancy price-tags attached). Others can be quite cheaply made, and nothing to crow about. Needless to say, they are strictly "for show" and had no military purpose whatsoever.

Similar polearms, but with generally larger heads, were also part of the funeral procession regalia.

I like the "impaled cow", too. Bovines don't figure as much in Chinese popular religion as in India, but the choice of animal may be dictated by the particular temple that it was displayed in. For instance, there is a "Bach Ma Mieu" (White Horse Temple) in Hanoi, enshrining a deified equine, and there are horsey themes in the decoration of not only the building but several of its interior furnishings.

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 08:30 PM

Hi Ariel

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The impaled cow looks hilarious

I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

I bet you will never figure out why your (and Ariel's) posting/s made me think of John Steinbeck ... I even doubt why, myself

But i see that the cavalry arrived, in the person of Philip, and here we have some real juice

.
Thank you Philip, for the teachings ... and the others, for their humoristic intervention.
Fernando

spiral · 22nd November 2007, 09:59 PM

"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown."

Was part of your questian.

Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name...

But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh.

cheers,
Spiral

fernando · 23rd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown."

Was part of your questian.

Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name...

But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh.

cheers,
Spiral

Hi Jonathan,
Don't take it wrong, but i regret failling to find the sense of your remark

. If they knew how to properly name them, they would certainly know their origin, and all about them. Now that i know what they are, from Philip, i will tell them myself. Besides i don't see much unfamiliarity between halberds and polearms

.
No, you didn't offend me; i am starting to get used to your observational answers

; i know they are garnished with good intent. Besides, i already told you about the bullits and the indifference cuirass

All the best
Fernando

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...}

They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think?

A Tibetan style Dorje & spear?

& the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none.

I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also.....

Spiral

It doesn't take a curator to produce such kind of considerations, as hardly that is the issue here. I am looking for some positive coments, more within the ethnographic side, to put it that way. Not properly the accuracy of the components alignment as a primary topic, but the allegory of the figures involved, whether naive or not, their historical meaning, if there is one, as well as other details one can learn with, from knowledge people. This General has lived in the XIX century, so these pieces were not made the other day, whatever they represent.
However thank you for your coments, which i am sure were well intentioned
All the best
Fernando

22nd November 2007, 06:13 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,667	For those who like Oriental stuff These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown. They belonged to the collection of General Antonio Joaquim Garcia, whose career was totally spent in Timor and Macau, as a Comander and as a Governor. In my ignorant view, these pieces were acquired or presented in one of these places, more likely in Macau, but i wonder why the guys at the museum are not able to reach this or a different assumption, being these so much characterized specimens. Any ideas ? Fernando Attached Images

22nd November 2007, 08:05 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	temple regalia These belong to a set of pole arms commonly seen in Chinese and Vietnamese temples. Usually, there is a rack of eight on each side of the altar in the main sanctuary. They are supposed to be for the use of the guardian spirits of the shrine (in Buddhist temples, guardian statues are often seen in pairs at the entryway, usually standing in martial arts poses with clenched fists, or holding maces). The heads of the pole arms are patterned after various types of spears, glaives, battle-axes, and even maces. In Vietnam, one often sees long two-handed sabers (guom truong) in these panoplies. The "weapons" are of various materials, most often of brass, sometimes of gilt and lacquered wood. They vary in quality according to the wealth of the temple's congregation. I've seen matched sets in fine gilt brass with the temple's name engraved on each. (some have ended up minus their poles, mounted on display pedestals at oriental art fairs, with some pretty fancy price-tags attached). Others can be quite cheaply made, and nothing to crow about. Needless to say, they are strictly "for show" and had no military purpose whatsoever. Similar polearms, but with generally larger heads, were also part of the funeral procession regalia. I like the "impaled cow", too. Bovines don't figure as much in Chinese popular religion as in India, but the choice of animal may be dictated by the particular temple that it was displayed in. For instance, there is a "Bach Ma Mieu" (White Horse Temple) in Hanoi, enshrining a deified equine, and there are horsey themes in the decoration of not only the building but several of its interior furnishings.

22nd November 2007, 07:18 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...} They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think? A Tibetan style Dorje & spear? & the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none. I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also..... Spiral

22nd November 2007, 07:40 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The impaled cow looks hilarious I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

22nd November 2007, 09:59 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown." Was part of your questian. Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name... But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh. cheers, Spiral