Chinese River Pirate's Knife?

drac2k · 9th December 2025, 09:49 PM

This strikes me as being a Chinese River Pirate's Knife, even though it does not have the typical blade configuration.It measures 17" long.

Ian · Yesterday, 02:29 AM

Might also be a Spanish colonial knife. That style of D-hilt is seen on some espada ancha. The blade could be from an old cut down sword.

drac2k · Yesterday, 06:09 AM

That would be my second guess, however based on the crude blade fullers, the style of the guard, the bosses holding the handle in place, and the scabbard, I'm still leaning towards Chinese.

Sajen · Yesterday, 06:12 PM

Hello David,

It's a rather nice South-West Chinese Shundao, 19th century, they come in many variations. It's not a river pirate knife. See here for example: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-hunting-knife
Attached are another example from Artzis sold examples.

Best regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 06:17 PM

This I think may well fall into the hu die dao class, often termed 'butterfly kvives' by collectors as they were most often paired in the same scabbard, effectively a knife in halves for two hand combat. The martial artists in China who often were employed by trade factors along the river networks in China connecting to major ports often went from their 'security' jobs to 'the other side' becoming 'pirates' .

These were much discussed here back in 2009 or so, with Gavin Nugent in his keen interest in these becoming pretty much the resident expert of the time, and I recall the intense research he did on them. I believe he even published at least one article on them with a martial arts magazine.

As Ian notes, there is a distinct similarity to Spanish Colonial espada ancha with the simple strap attachment of the knuckleguard to the pommel...the downturned quillon of the guard also similar but its character resembles some other Chinese weapons. I think the Philippines may account for some of this cross diffusion of features in certain weapons, as of course Chinese trade and presence was notable there.

It would be hard to pinpoint period for this example as these traditional styles were in place for so long. The blade indeed seems a reprofiled blade from much larger sword. not uncommon of course for the sundry blacksmiths and armorers who prevailed throughout these river oriented communities.

PS just crossed posts with Detlef......he has perfect match I think, and I would note here that the 'river pirate' designation cannot of course be deemed specific, but as with all such weapons, it would be hard to say exactly what character of use the weapon might have found. The quillon is tempting to associate with the 'butterfly' knives though tenuously.

drac2k · Yesterday, 07:29 PM

Thanks to all for your comments.As Jim noted the guard certainly has that "butterfly knife look," however the scabbard fits only one weapon and it will not accommodate a second one.It may have been made from a reshaped sword, however it would have been massive as the largest width of the blade is 1.5" and 5/16" thick at the base of the spine.
Sajen, you nailed it again, plus as I was exploring the site you provided, I found out that I have a "Rare Santali Shield," lol.

Sajen · Yesterday, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Sajen, you nailed it again, plus as I was exploring the site you provided, I found out that I have a "Rare Santali Shield," lol.

Hi David,

It's always good to search on Peter's site as on other dealers' sites (also when dealers could be wrong also) to learn about cold weapons!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · Yesterday, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This I think may well fall into the hu die dao class, often termed 'butterfly kvives' by collectors as they were most often paired in the same scabbard, effectively a knife in halves for two hand combat.

Hi Jim,

Sorry, it's not a Hudeidao.

Best regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Jim,

Sorry, it's not a Hudeidao.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,
OK, maybe a ho de do ??? Just kidding! I coulda worded that better, while LIKE those in appearance somewhat, it is not one of course.

All the best
Jim

9th December 2025, 09:49 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,306	Chinese River Pirate's Knife? This strikes me as being a Chinese River Pirate's Knife, even though it does not have the typical blade configuration.It measures 17" long. Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:12 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,470	Hello David, It's a rather nice South-West Chinese Shundao, 19th century, they come in many variations. It's not a river pirate knife. See here for example: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-hunting-knife Attached are another example from Artzis sold examples. Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,718	Hu die dao This I think may well fall into the hu die dao class, often termed 'butterfly kvives' by collectors as they were most often paired in the same scabbard, effectively a knife in halves for two hand combat. The martial artists in China who often were employed by trade factors along the river networks in China connecting to major ports often went from their 'security' jobs to 'the other side' becoming 'pirates' . These were much discussed here back in 2009 or so, with Gavin Nugent in his keen interest in these becoming pretty much the resident expert of the time, and I recall the intense research he did on them. I believe he even published at least one article on them with a martial arts magazine. As Ian notes, there is a distinct similarity to Spanish Colonial espada ancha with the simple strap attachment of the knuckleguard to the pommel...the downturned quillon of the guard also similar but its character resembles some other Chinese weapons. I think the Philippines may account for some of this cross diffusion of features in certain weapons, as of course Chinese trade and presence was notable there. It would be hard to pinpoint period for this example as these traditional styles were in place for so long. The blade indeed seems a reprofiled blade from much larger sword. not uncommon of course for the sundry blacksmiths and armorers who prevailed throughout these river oriented communities. PS just crossed posts with Detlef......he has perfect match I think, and I would note here that the 'river pirate' designation cannot of course be deemed specific, but as with all such weapons, it would be hard to say exactly what character of use the weapon might have found. The quillon is tempting to associate with the 'butterfly' knives though tenuously. Attached Images

Yesterday, 02:29 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,596	Might also be a Spanish colonial knife. That style of D-hilt is seen on some espada ancha. The blade could be from an old cut down sword.

Yesterday, 06:09 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,306	That would be my second guess, however based on the crude blade fullers, the style of the guard, the bosses holding the handle in place, and the scabbard, I'm still leaning towards Chinese.

Yesterday, 07:29 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,306	Thanks to all for your comments.As Jim noted the guard certainly has that "butterfly knife look," however the scabbard fits only one weapon and it will not accommodate a second one.It may have been made from a reshaped sword, however it would have been massive as the largest width of the blade is 1.5" and 5/16" thick at the base of the spine. Sajen, you nailed it again, plus as I was exploring the site you provided, I found out that I have a "Rare Santali Shield," lol.