Crucible steel in Malela keris

adamb · Yesterday, 06:28 AM

Is anyone willing to venture an opinion on the swirly pattern evident in this Malela keris? Is this crucible steel, unlikely as the prospect of a wootz keris blade might seem?

Interested Party · Yesterday, 06:34 PM

I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it!

Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 11:11 PM

That is a very astute observation, IP.

Very.

Well done.

That thought never crossed my mind, but it should have.

Here is are two photos of something I made, it has over 4000 nominal layers in it, no nickel, only wrought iron & 01(oil hardening steel #1). Both sides are shown. A three stack was folded & welded 12 times. It has been heat treated, oil quench, double draw.

This was stained with ferric chloride once, & has not been touched since. No etching, no repeat washings with acid, such as is done with a keris.

Imagine what this tight layering would have done to my blade if it had been treated like a keris.

Yes, I do believe that the answer is multiple folding & welding; probably made necessary because the material from which it is made required a lot of washing --- "washing" = folding and welding in the forge to remove impurities prior to forging into a billet that can then be forged to shape prior to cold work taking place.

I've played with the photo a bit so that the grain in the metal can be seen, it is a handheld snapshot, it might be seen better if I had photographed it in a different way.

jagabuwana · Today, 03:13 AM

Hello, Adam - nice keris! Thank you for sharing.

Hello, Alan:

- From what you and IP have said, it seems like the effect on Adam's keris could be produced by arranging the layers as you would for pamor wos wutah, but folding many more times to create a denser pamor which might look like wootz. Am I understanding correctly? If so, would this still be called pamor urab urab as opposed to wos wutah, or does pamor UU refer specifically to something with wootz construct?

- If this keris were in your hand, how would you identify whether it is crucible or forge welded?

- From previous discussions in this forum I've gathered that a whole-wootz keris is exceedingly rare. But if they were more common, would you be any more inclined to think that this is made of crucible steel?

- To my eye this keris appears have no slorok. If I'm right is that a relevant factor in this discussion?

A. G. Maisey · Today, 05:31 AM

Jaga, this keris has no pamor, it is all from the same material, it has no core.

Don't forget that before ferric material is mixed with nickel bearing material, that ferric material needs to be washed, so what we're looking at in this blade is, I think, material that was so dirty to begin with that it needed a very large number of weld heats to get it clean. I believe that it is extremely unlikely that the maker intended it to finish up looking like it does, but he just had to keep on folding & welding to get it clean enough to use.

What I've found is that even with poor quality wrought iron, it normally comes clean after about 6 or 8 times folded & welded. When it is clean then you can add the nickel & weld & fold some more.

I've only ever seen one example of pamor urab-urab, & I do not know what the material was, it might have been like this keris, it might have been wootz, but I would never be able to identify wootz positively from a photo, I'd need to handle it, & even then I could be wrong.

As to how I would ID anything at all, the answer is pretty much always going to be "more than 70 years of experience", that & the fact that I've gotten my hands dirty along the way. But seriously, simply by looking , examining the nature of the material & following the grain.

I do not know if a keris made entirely of wootz ever existed. I know that at least one gonjo did, but a whole keris? Doubt it.

Yeah, it has no core, but all that does is tell us that it cannot have any pamor either.

Yesterday, 11:11 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,103	That is a very astute observation, IP. Very. Well done. That thought never crossed my mind, but it should have. Here is are two photos of something I made, it has over 4000 nominal layers in it, no nickel, only wrought iron & 01(oil hardening steel #1). Both sides are shown. A three stack was folded & welded 12 times. It has been heat treated, oil quench, double draw. This was stained with ferric chloride once, & has not been touched since. No etching, no repeat washings with acid, such as is done with a keris. Imagine what this tight layering would have done to my blade if it had been treated like a keris. Yes, I do believe that the answer is multiple folding & welding; probably made necessary because the material from which it is made required a lot of washing --- "washing" = folding and welding in the forge to remove impurities prior to forging into a billet that can then be forged to shape prior to cold work taking place. I've played with the photo a bit so that the grain in the metal can be seen, it is a handheld snapshot, it might be seen better if I had photographed it in a different way. Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:28 AM	#1
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 50	Crucible steel in Malela keris Is anyone willing to venture an opinion on the swirly pattern evident in this Malela keris? Is this crucible steel, unlikely as the prospect of a wootz keris blade might seem? Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:34 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 516	I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it! Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

Today, 03:13 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 293	Hello, Adam - nice keris! Thank you for sharing. Hello, Alan: - From what you and IP have said, it seems like the effect on Adam's keris could be produced by arranging the layers as you would for pamor wos wutah, but folding many more times to create a denser pamor which might look like wootz. Am I understanding correctly? If so, would this still be called pamor urab urab as opposed to wos wutah, or does pamor UU refer specifically to something with wootz construct? - If this keris were in your hand, how would you identify whether it is crucible or forge welded? - From previous discussions in this forum I've gathered that a whole-wootz keris is exceedingly rare. But if they were more common, would you be any more inclined to think that this is made of crucible steel? - To my eye this keris appears have no slorok. If I'm right is that a relevant factor in this discussion?

Today, 05:31 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,103	Jaga, this keris has no pamor, it is all from the same material, it has no core. Don't forget that before ferric material is mixed with nickel bearing material, that ferric material needs to be washed, so what we're looking at in this blade is, I think, material that was so dirty to begin with that it needed a very large number of weld heats to get it clean. I believe that it is extremely unlikely that the maker intended it to finish up looking like it does, but he just had to keep on folding & welding to get it clean enough to use. What I've found is that even with poor quality wrought iron, it normally comes clean after about 6 or 8 times folded & welded. When it is clean then you can add the nickel & weld & fold some more. I've only ever seen one example of pamor urab-urab, & I do not know what the material was, it might have been like this keris, it might have been wootz, but I would never be able to identify wootz positively from a photo, I'd need to handle it, & even then I could be wrong. As to how I would ID anything at all, the answer is pretty much always going to be "more than 70 years of experience", that & the fact that I've gotten my hands dirty along the way. But seriously, simply by looking , examining the nature of the material & following the grain. I do not know if a keris made entirely of wootz ever existed. I know that at least one gonjo did, but a whole keris? Doubt it. Yeah, it has no core, but all that does is tell us that it cannot have any pamor either.