Question regarding ore used

[urbanspaceman]

Split from thread Peter Munston and Family

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Urban Spaceman - I know Stone was involved in getting the Hounslow works up and running at scale, though it was Heyden who got the German smiths over from Rotterdam. Was the Hounslow site purely chosen because of the existing mills and the convenience of Northumberland's 'Cutt river'?

Jim - good point on names. When Charles' army stopped at Turnham Green to face Essex's army and the London Trained Bands, those outside London referred to it as 'London', though it was 6 or 7 miles outside. Brentford, oddly, was identified as such when there was a small battle there.

Thanks. I may have been too far up my ladder of inference in assuming Stone wanted to be away from the LCG, but the water and mills were the primary needs. I've read about suspected smuggling into Hounslow to keep production up, but that was based on the Solingen running wolf being applied and as you say, Solingen trained smiths could legitimately apply that mark.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that it is typically noted that the sites for renowned blade making centers were chosen for the access of iron ore. This is mentioned I know for Sheffield, I think it was noted for Hounslow but cannot place the cite.

With Solingen it was always profoundly noted that the iron ore in nearby areas was the key to that location.However in a note in a reference I have since feverishly tried to relocate, it claims that during the Thirty Years War, much of the disruption of production was caused by loss of access to Swedish steel imports. This caused the guilds to enforce limitations on the numbers of weapons allotted to each smith or shop.
These restrictions then may have been the reasons for the smiths to relocate to other locations.

I wonder if Swedish steel was indeed imported into England in the same manner? I know we have discussed this before years ago, but perhaps a talking point here? It seems rich deposits in the north led to Sheffield, which curiously never largely entered into sword blades, just knives.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. Somewhere in my hundreds of files of research is a detailed account of all the various impurities in the various iron ores according to region. I will track it down as this sort of detail is meat and drink to me.
However: getting down to the nitty-gritty, the biggest issue is the importation of Swedish "Bar" iron, or "Oregrund" ore, from the Dannemora mines.
The principle additional ingredient in this ore (now please, if anyone knows better, then I would greatly appreciate disabusing as I am no expert) is Manganese. Unsurprisingly it is also found in the ores of the Wupper Valley.
NB: it is possible that the huge influx of Huguenots into Solingen – during the 30 years war - put an additional strain on the output of the local mines and Remscheid iron production facilities, so they may well have been restricted to using Swedish imports. Beyond the Huguenots, of course, the demand for weapons from the Holy Roman Empire during that war will have been monumental. Sweden will have been the first port of call for supplies. Solingen had total religious tolerance despite being a Catholic city.
We have/had iron ore deposits nearby Shotley Bridge, but they are too high in impurities and it was not a practical proposition to remove them on anything but a limited output basis. There are better ores not too far away (the Romans found them) but they were either undiscovered or too distant to transport.
Once serious production was started in the Derwent Valley, then Swedish Bar iron was shipped in to the Tyne as that was relatively easy. Unfortunately, until the harbour facilities at Hull were developed, Sheffield/Scunthorpe had no access to Swedish imports, hence the poor quality blades from John Scunthorpe that were returned with the description "…they stand like lead…".
The Bertram presence in Shotley Bridge, with his multi generational Swedish family and his earlier working tenure in Wira Bruk, did not go unnoticed by either Kalmeter and/or Angerstein who were warmly welcomed during their industrial espionage adventures. Also, Bertram's influence on Ambrose Crowley's "biggest industrial complex in the world" a few miles down-valley also resulted in monumental demand for Swedish ore.
Curiously, the finest 'steel' being produced alongside Germany's was called Newcastle steel, made using the 'German' method, and came from Bertram first. Angerstein was very interested to understand how he was able to outclass Swedish steel and Bertram was happy to explain as by then Crowley's industrial espionage by stealing Bertram's apprentices meant it was no longer a secret in the valley.
"Mr Bertram acknowledged quite openly what he, through much trouble and effort, had learnt, namely that a good Oregrund iron properly converted to steel by cementation can never be further perfected by repeated processes of cementation and shearing. It is likely to lose in quality by such treatment and finally disintegrate like a slag without substance or life." RR Angerstein

[urbanspaceman]

Perhaps these last two posts could become a new thread.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Jim. Somewhere in my hundreds of files of research is a detailed account of all the various impurities in the various iron ores according to region. I will track it down as this sort of detail is meat and drink to me.
However: getting down to the nitty-gritty, the biggest issue is the importation of Swedish "Bar" iron, or "Oregrund" ore, from the Dannemora mines.
The principle additional ingredient in this ore (now please, if anyone knows better, then I would greatly appreciate disabusing as I am no expert) is Manganese. Unsurprisingly it is also found in the ores of the Wupper Valley.
NB: it is possible that the huge influx of Huguenots into Solingen – during the 30 years war - put an additional strain on the output of the local mines and Remscheid iron production facilities, so they may well have been restricted to using Swedish imports. Beyond the Huguenots, of course, the demand for weapons from the Holy Roman Empire during that war will have been monumental. Sweden will have been the first port of call for supplies. Solingen had total religious tolerance despite being a Catholic city.
We have/had iron ore deposits nearby Shotley Bridge, but they are too high in impurities and it was not a practical proposition to remove them on anything but a limited output basis. There are better ores not too far away (the Romans found them) but they were either undiscovered or too distant to transport.
Once serious production was started in the Derwent Valley, then Swedish Bar iron was shipped in to the Tyne as that was relatively easy. Unfortunately, until the harbour facilities at Hull were developed, Sheffield/Scunthorpe had no access to Swedish imports, hence the poor quality blades from John Scunthorpe that were returned with the description "…they stand like lead…".
The Bertram presence in Shotley Bridge, with his multi generational Swedish family and his earlier working tenure in Wira Bruk, did not go unnoticed by either Kalmeter and/or Angerstein who were warmly welcomed during their industrial espionage adventures. Also, Bertram's influence on Ambrose Crowley's "biggest industrial complex in the world" a few miles down-valley also resulted in monumental demand for Swedish ore.
Curiously, the finest 'steel' being produced alongside Germany's was called Newcastle steel, made using the 'German' method, and came from Bertram first. Angerstein was very interested to understand how he was able to outclass Swedish steel and Bertram was happy to explain as by then Crowley's industrial espionage by stealing Bertram's apprentices meant it was no longer a secret in the valley.
"Mr Bertram acknowledged quite openly what he, through much trouble and effort, had learnt, namely that a good Oregrund iron properly converted to steel by cementation can never be further perfected by repeated processes of cementation and shearing. It is likely to lose in quality by such treatment and finally disintegrate like a slag without substance or life." RR Angerstein

That's really interesting. I ws looking into Solingens religious affiliations, who controlled it and its likely customer base during the TYW to see if it gave any clues as to the owner of the blade of a Pappenheimer I have. Definitely Solingen, with various generic Latin phrases and what may be a saint or bishop on it.

[urbanspaceman]

This thread got me thinking... then researching, because I had never considered where Hounslow got its iron ore from; or London - for that matter. I suppose if pushed I would have said - without reference - from Sweden.
However, there were vast amounts of ironstone in the clay beds of The Weald.
Where the (****) is the Weald?
It is an area centered around Tunbridge Wells stretching across the counties south of London.
And, there were huge numbers of trees in the Hampshire forest for coke.
Blast furnaces and finery forges were in existence by the 1490s and by the time of Henry VIII the area was a center of armaments manufacture: cannons. So it can be relatively accurately presupposed that it was supplying Greenwich, then Hounslow, and then Oxford.
But by the time of the Restoration, Swedish bar iron was being used.
Sweden may well have supplied Greenwich before that - it was certainly very accessible. Does anybody know? If so, then the Restoration date may be erroneous.
Does anybody know?

[Jim McDougall]

This question really is perplexing Keith. While often the production of weapons is inferred to a certain location, it seems typically assumed it was either for the accessibility to local resources for said production.
However that does not seem always the case, in fact quite contrary often.

The thing is that extracting and processing material is complicated, consuming and difficult...so much in the manner of 'why trade blades were used rather than locally produced'...expedience.....became the attraction to Swedish steel.

Its like wootz, the choice crucible steel for blades throughout the Middle East, it was produced in India (and Ceylon) and the ingots traded prolifically to be used in forging blades. It was not until the British Raj that deforestation led to the demise of its production, and the loss of generational makers that production of fine blades nominally ended.

I wish I could find that reference noting the disruption of Swedish steel into Solingen during Thirty Years War caused decline in production and the diaspora in degree of many of the makers. It is in some degree like the demise of Toledo, whose decline began with the move of the royal court to Madrid, then other economic factors brought demise of the industry in 17th c

It seems like somewhere I read that Cologne was always recognized in earlier years as the place of origin of German swords as this was the center for the cutlers to mount the blades from Solingen. ..thus they were called Koln (Cologne) swords. However in another reference it was noted it was because Cologne was the Diocese center for the region.
This suggests religious geo-classification elements also being at hand.

Clearly there are many elements in understanding the development of swords and their production far beyond identifying the finished products...which makes these aspects of their history so intriguing.