Origin of the keris

Pusaka · 18th August 2006, 02:29 AM

A picture speaks a 1000 words!

Rick · 18th August 2006, 02:42 AM

Interesting stuff Pusaka ; welcome back to the show !

You've been absent too long .

Any idea who the entity is wielding the K.L.O. ?

David · 18th August 2006, 04:22 AM

Sorry, i accidently posted under the wrong name as i don't intend to use two different monikers on this forum.

Anyway, hey Pusaka, welcome aboard. Any chance you can supply a close-up on the weapon in the first photo? If i try to blow it up it will just pixelize.
Rick...K.L.O.?

Rick · 18th August 2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i accidently posted under the wrong name as i don't intend to use two different monikers on this forum.

Anyway, hey Pusaka, welcome aboard. Any chance you can supply a close-up on the weapon in the first photo? If i try to blow it up it will just pixelize.
Rick...K.L.O.?

Keris Like Object .

I suspect Pusaka found that online; what say you Pusaka ?
Any chance for a better (sharper) picture ?

David · 18th August 2006, 05:15 AM

Yes, certainly what would help determine whether it is more than just a K.L.O.

or a E.K.L.O (extremely keris-like object

) would be what happens at the base of the blade, which appears to be somewhat covered by the hand of the figure in this relief. Doubled edged daggers are quite a common occurrence. Hopefully a close up would tell more.

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2006, 05:50 AM

Yes, this is a good graphic example of the line of descent of the keris.

A number of Indian swords as illustrated in Rawson (Library of Congress Cat Card:- 69-11144) display the symmetric blade base observed in the Karnataka relief shown by Pusaka.

A 5th. Century Gupta sword, 10-13th century Pala sword, various khandas including the Harasnath, the South Indian Madrasi swords---some even display a waved blade---the Orissan khanda; all these types shown by Rawson have some feature which can be seen as keris-like.

Older Indian swords tended to be shorter than the khandas I have mentioned, but the typology is still evident in these later, longer blades.

As I noted in my "Origin" article, the keris seems to be a descendant of the leaf shaped blades of India, which Rawson considers to be a "a common Aryan heritage of the Indo-Aryan peoples".

The Panataran relief showing a monkey warrior wielding a dagger with symmetric base is often distorted in published photographs by having the part of the blade where the gandik would be , shortened, or otherwise manipulated, to make it appear more keris-like.In fact, this Panataran representation shows a blade with a very symmetric base---which of course, makes it even more Indian.

There can be no doubt that the keris as we know it developed in Jawa, however, I think that there can be equally no doubt that it developed from Indian roots.

Pusaka · 18th August 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Any idea who the entity is wielding the K.L.O. ?

Sorry Rick, yes he is king vishnuvardhana.

Rick · 18th August 2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sorry Rick, yes he is king vishnuvardhana.

Thanks for the ID !
Say; do you have a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood ?
Think about buying a copy .

Added any new keris to your collection ?

Battara · 18th August 2006, 10:43 PM

First, is the monkey with the blade Hanuman?

Secondly, Rick, you should get the Elgood book, it is great.

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2006, 11:53 PM

I always thought he was Hanoman, but I`ve seen this same relief ---with the altered blade base, of course---in publications by people who know more about the literature than I do, describe him as just a "monkey warrior". I don`t think it makes much difference for our purposes whether it's Hanoman or or a warrior. Both monkeys. Both using weapons.

Rick · 19th August 2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

First, is the monkey with the blade Hanuman?

Secondly, Rick, you should get the Elgood book, it is great.

I've got it Jose .

Pusaka · 19th August 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Thanks for the ID !
Say; do you have a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood ?
Think about buying a copy .

Added any new keris to your collection ?

No I don’t have that book but will probably get round to buying it at some point.
I do have a few keris and will post a few pic`s when I get a new camera. The Camera I have at the moment is useless and I can’t seem to get any decent close up photos with it.

Rick · 19th August 2006, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

No I don’t have that book but will probably get round to buying it at some point.
I do have a few keris and will post a few pic`s when I get a new camera. The Camera I have at the moment is useless and I can’t seem to get any decent close up photos with it.

I can understand Pusaka; I have a Fuji F700 digi and sometimes I just cannot get decently focused pictures out of it .

I have a collection of Nikon film cameras that give me no problems; but digi's drive me crazy!!
I use mine at 1 meg per picture because really a computer screen only renders at 72 DPI; so what's the use of shooting at a higher res.
Frustrating !!

Have you downloaded irfanview ?
www.irfanview.com free !

18th August 2006, 02:29 AM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Origin of the keris A picture speaks a 1000 words! Attached Images

18th August 2006, 02:42 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Interesting stuff Pusaka ; welcome back to the show ! You've been absent too long . Any idea who the entity is wielding the K.L.O. ?

18th August 2006, 04:22 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Sorry, i accidently posted under the wrong name as i don't intend to use two different monikers on this forum. Anyway, hey Pusaka, welcome aboard. Any chance you can supply a close-up on the weapon in the first photo? If i try to blow it up it will just pixelize. Rick...K.L.O.?

18th August 2006, 05:15 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Yes, certainly what would help determine whether it is more than just a K.L.O. or a E.K.L.O (extremely keris-like object ) would be what happens at the base of the blade, which appears to be somewhat covered by the hand of the figure in this relief. Doubled edged daggers are quite a common occurrence. Hopefully a close up would tell more.

18th August 2006, 05:50 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, this is a good graphic example of the line of descent of the keris. A number of Indian swords as illustrated in Rawson (Library of Congress Cat Card:- 69-11144) display the symmetric blade base observed in the Karnataka relief shown by Pusaka. A 5th. Century Gupta sword, 10-13th century Pala sword, various khandas including the Harasnath, the South Indian Madrasi swords---some even display a waved blade---the Orissan khanda; all these types shown by Rawson have some feature which can be seen as keris-like. Older Indian swords tended to be shorter than the khandas I have mentioned, but the typology is still evident in these later, longer blades. As I noted in my "Origin" article, the keris seems to be a descendant of the leaf shaped blades of India, which Rawson considers to be a "a common Aryan heritage of the Indo-Aryan peoples". The Panataran relief showing a monkey warrior wielding a dagger with symmetric base is often distorted in published photographs by having the part of the blade where the gandik would be , shortened, or otherwise manipulated, to make it appear more keris-like.In fact, this Panataran representation shows a blade with a very symmetric base---which of course, makes it even more Indian. There can be no doubt that the keris as we know it developed in Jawa, however, I think that there can be equally no doubt that it developed from Indian roots.

18th August 2006, 10:43 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	First, is the monkey with the blade Hanuman? Secondly, Rick, you should get the Elgood book, it is great.

18th August 2006, 11:53 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I always thought he was Hanoman, but I`ve seen this same relief ---with the altered blade base, of course---in publications by people who know more about the literature than I do, describe him as just a "monkey warrior". I don`t think it makes much difference for our purposes whether it's Hanoman or or a warrior. Both monkeys. Both using weapons.