Origin of this knife?

eftihis · 27th March 2006, 06:15 AM

Here is a knife i do not know where it is from. Any ideas?

Valjhun · 27th March 2006, 06:28 AM

Gaucho knife from south America...

Fine example.

ariel · 27th March 2006, 08:18 AM

I vote for North Africa

katana · 27th March 2006, 12:03 PM

IMHO I agree with Ariel, North Africa with an Arabic 'flavour'

not2sharp · 27th March 2006, 12:24 PM

(Valjhun) "Gaucho knife from south America... Fine example."
(ariel) "I vote for North Africa"

I will meet you guys half way and say Canary Islands.

This one was recently sold by Oriental Arms

Read about them here:
http://www.grancanaria.com/patronato_turismo/965.0.html

n2s

Justin · 27th March 2006, 11:38 PM

I think this is a REALLY nice South American knife, they definately have a North African look to the knives themselves but their scabbards dont look African to me, here's one on Oriental Arms thats similar.:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=608

RobT · 28th March 2006, 02:00 AM

Hi all,
Given the similarity of the hilt (especially the ferrule) to the Brazilian faca da ponta, I vote for South America. There was a thread about faca da ponta "Mexican (?) Dagger for Identification?" with Ian providing the correct ID.
Sincerely,
RobT

not2sharp · 28th March 2006, 02:31 AM

It even looks a bit like the Brazilian Sorocabana knife.

Although, you should all check this page out since the brasilian 19th century bowie pictured mid page is a 98% match to the knife we are looking at here (what a beauty!!!!!!!!!)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DN

n2s

Chris Evans · 28th March 2006, 04:38 AM

Hi,

That is not a Gaucho knife. As to its origins, I cannot say, but I have never sen one like it associated with Gauchos. Gaucho knives were made from either cut down sword blades, bayonets or kitchen/butcher knives.

Cheers
Chris

Ian · 28th March 2006, 04:42 AM

Eftihis:

Your knife has the general characteristics of a "Mediterranean knife" which is a style that was copied in a number of Portuguese, Spanish and probably Italian colonies. The Brazilian faca da ponta is, to the best of my knowledge, a S. American adaptation of the "Mediterranean knife."

Personally, I favor a Mediterranean origin for your example rather than S. America. I just have not seen such a large overlay at the ricasso on a faca and the hilt does not look right, at least compared with the examples I have seen. Also, the blade is wider than most faca, which have more of a "stiletto" profile (see the picture in link to Artzi's site above).

Since N. Africa is part of the range of "Mediterranean knives," it would be in play too.

Just my thoughts. Nothing really definite. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Ian.

RobT · 29th March 2006, 10:48 PM

"I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that this is an African/African-related style; it's pure European, (there are African Mediterranean dirks, but they're different; see "kodme") and other than the corvos and the pointed bolsters, any of these knives could very simply be from Itally or Spain. If they are from colonies they are pretty much straight copies."

Given the above response to my suggestion at the time that the faca da ponta and other similarly styled knives bear a strong African influence (see thread "Mexican ? Dagger for Identification?", 03/11/05), I can't help but feel heartened by the comments in this thread.

On a different note: I saw a knife that had a faca da ponta hilt but had a broad blade like the one that started this thread. It also had a crossguard. On the side of the blade in big fancy letters was "A. Venenoza". The scabbard was the standard faca da ponta style. The knife appeared to be factory made and of recent manufacture. There was no country of origin on the knife or sheath. If anyone knows the A Venenoza company maybe we could contact the company and find out more about this style of knife.
Sincerely,
RobT

not2sharp · 30th March 2006, 02:53 AM

In Armas Blancas en Espana, by Rafael Rubio, there is a plate (plate 10) that shows a pair of knives silimar to the one at the top of this thread. Rafeal tells us that there are many different Spanish made versions of these knives and that they are generally catagorized as "hispanoarabes" (spanish arabic) by spanish collectors.

n2s
see ISBN 84-923200-6-0

katana · 30th March 2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Rafeal tells us that there are many different Spanish made versions of these knives and that they are generally catagorized as "hispanoarabes" (spanish arabic) by spanish collectors.

I am certain that I have seen a similar knife categorised as 'Moroccan', a hop. skip and a jump from Spain. (Possibly a trade knife?) Conversely, many areas of Southern Spain are steeped in Moorish history, could these knives have been manufactured for their Arab brethren ?
Certainly the Med. has been a hot-bed for trading for thousands of years, so the idea of cultures copying designs of knives goes without saying.
Is there a scabbard?

BSMStar · 31st March 2006, 06:22 PM

I am probably off base, but I cannot help but to see some similarities to the blade of a Kindjal...

eftihis · 1st April 2006, 05:18 AM

Hi,
The blade on this kindjal is new! It is a reproduction and it is not tempered. Yes, there are straight lines similar, but the similarities stop there.

RobT · 6th April 2006, 02:19 AM

Marc and Chris Evans,
This thread is providing me with some much needed information. First fernando and now you guys. Your explanation of what qualifies as a facon cleared up a mystery for me. I had wondered why the general purpose knife (that I had mistakenly thought was a facon) was considered such a formidable weapon and why the tourist versions were always so small. Now I know that I have been looking at tourist versions of the cuchillo criollo.
By the way, I didn't say the third knife was a facon. I said the hilt looked very much like a faca da ponta hilt and the sheath looked like a Canary Island knife sheath but the blade lacked the Spanish notch.
Sincerely,
RobT

27th March 2006, 06:15 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Origin of this knife? Here is a knife i do not know where it is from. Any ideas? Attached Images

27th March 2006, 12:24 PM	#5
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	(Valjhun) "Gaucho knife from south America... Fine example." (ariel) "I vote for North Africa" I will meet you guys half way and say Canary Islands. This one was recently sold by Oriental Arms Read about them here: http://www.grancanaria.com/patronato_turismo/965.0.html n2s Last edited by not2sharp; 27th March 2006 at 12:34 PM.

28th March 2006, 02:00 AM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 568	Facon? Hi all, Given the similarity of the hilt (especially the ferrule) to the Brazilian faca da ponta, I vote for South America. There was a thread about faca da ponta "Mexican (?) Dagger for Identification?" with Ian providing the correct ID. Sincerely, RobT

28th March 2006, 04:38 AM	#9
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, That is not a Gaucho knife. As to its origins, I cannot say, but I have never sen one like it associated with Gauchos. Gaucho knives were made from either cut down sword blades, bayonets or kitchen/butcher knives. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 28th March 2006 at 06:06 AM.

28th March 2006, 04:42 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,515	Mediterranean perhaps Eftihis: Your knife has the general characteristics of a "Mediterranean knife" which is a style that was copied in a number of Portuguese, Spanish and probably Italian colonies. The Brazilian faca da ponta is, to the best of my knowledge, a S. American adaptation of the "Mediterranean knife." Personally, I favor a Mediterranean origin for your example rather than S. America. I just have not seen such a large overlay at the ricasso on a faca and the hilt does not look right, at least compared with the examples I have seen. Also, the blade is wider than most faca, which have more of a "stiletto" profile (see the picture in link to Artzi's site above). Since N. Africa is part of the range of "Mediterranean knives," it would be in play too. Just my thoughts. Nothing really definite. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Ian.

27th March 2006, 06:28 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Gaucho knife from south America... Fine example.

27th March 2006, 08:18 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I vote for North Africa

27th March 2006, 12:03 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	IMHO I agree with Ariel, North Africa with an Arabic 'flavour'

27th March 2006, 11:38 PM	#6
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 182	I think this is a REALLY nice South American knife, they definately have a North African look to the knives themselves but their scabbards dont look African to me, here's one on Oriental Arms thats similar.: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=608

28th March 2006, 02:31 AM	#8
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	It even looks a bit like the Brazilian Sorocabana knife. Although, you should all check this page out since the brasilian 19th century bowie pictured mid page is a 98% match to the knife we are looking at here (what a beauty!!!!!!!!!) http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DN n2s

29th March 2006, 10:48 PM	#11
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 568	"I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that this is an African/African-related style; it's pure European, (there are African Mediterranean dirks, but they're different; see "kodme") and other than the corvos and the pointed bolsters, any of these knives could very simply be from Itally or Spain. If they are from colonies they are pretty much straight copies." Given the above response to my suggestion at the time that the faca da ponta and other similarly styled knives bear a strong African influence (see thread "Mexican ? Dagger for Identification?", 03/11/05), I can't help but feel heartened by the comments in this thread. On a different note: I saw a knife that had a faca da ponta hilt but had a broad blade like the one that started this thread. It also had a crossguard. On the side of the blade in big fancy letters was "A. Venenoza". The scabbard was the standard faca da ponta style. The knife appeared to be factory made and of recent manufacture. There was no country of origin on the knife or sheath. If anyone knows the A Venenoza company maybe we could contact the company and find out more about this style of knife. Sincerely, RobT

30th March 2006, 02:53 AM	#12
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	In Armas Blancas en Espana, by Rafael Rubio, there is a plate (plate 10) that shows a pair of knives silimar to the one at the top of this thread. Rafeal tells us that there are many different Spanish made versions of these knives and that they are generally catagorized as "hispanoarabes" (spanish arabic) by spanish collectors. n2s see ISBN 84-923200-6-0

31st March 2006, 06:22 PM	#14
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am probably off base, but I cannot help but to see some similarities to the blade of a Kindjal... Attached Images

1st April 2006, 05:18 AM	#15
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Hi, The blade on this kindjal is new! It is a reproduction and it is not tempered. Yes, there are straight lines similar, but the similarities stop there.

6th April 2006, 02:19 AM	#16
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 568	I stand corrected Marc and Chris Evans, This thread is providing me with some much needed information. First fernando and now you guys. Your explanation of what qualifies as a facon cleared up a mystery for me. I had wondered why the general purpose knife (that I had mistakenly thought was a facon) was considered such a formidable weapon and why the tourist versions were always so small. Now I know that I have been looking at tourist versions of the cuchillo criollo. By the way, I didn't say the third knife was a facon. I said the hilt looked very much like a faca da ponta hilt and the sheath looked like a Canary Island knife sheath but the blade lacked the Spanish notch. Sincerely, RobT