Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

Battara · 5th December 2010, 05:02 AM

Greetings!

I have heard of fossil molar being used for its talismanic properties in keris and other Indonesian pieces. The problem is I can't find any research on the topic. Can you folks stir me in the right direction for documentation and research please?

A. G. Maisey · 5th December 2010, 08:47 AM

I don't know of any "research", but I've handled the raw material I know how its found, where its found, how its worked, what its deficiencies are what the price of raw material is, what the cost of working it is, etc, etc, etc.

I also know it is damned unstable and something that you think is a perfect item can develop cracks, chips, splits even when kept in a protected environment.

What do you want to know?

cedric Le Dauphin · 5th December 2010, 02:35 PM

Hi! Everybody,

Dear allan
Not interferring, I'd love to know the regions where theses 'fossils' can be found.
Best regards

Jean · 5th December 2010, 03:25 PM

This subject was raised in another thread and I got some interesting information from my Javanese friend from Yogyakarta who trades this materials and I would like to share it with you in order to stimulate the discussion:
According to him, there are 2 types of fossil elephant/mamoouth molar, namely the hard one and the soft one, and only the soft type can be used for making kris hilts or warangkas. One possible interpretation (uncontrolled opinion only) could be that the hard fossil type is older than the soft one due to mineralization?
Also according to him the materials comes from Sumatra (from fossil or more recently dead elephants?) and since recently also from Russia (Siberia) where a lot of frozen mamooths can be found (not fossil ones since they were perfectly preserved under the ice or frozen ground). The Russian molar materials is worked in Bali especially.
I attach a picture of the raw material, which has a yellowish colour with white and darker stripes, and a sample of a finished Javanese hilt & warangka. In order to enhance the colour contrast, some traders dye the pieces by dipping it into a potassium permanganate solution which has a purple colour. Upon contact with air, the unstable permanganate compound is chemically reduced to manganese oxide which has a brown colour and is stable. I attach a picture of such a dyed piece, so the difference in colour between some pieces would not be due to their age as I wrongly said earlier but to a dying treatment.
I personally wonder whether these pieces are actually fossil ones or not, or may be both?
Best regards
Jean

Alam Shah · 5th December 2010, 04:04 PM

Hi Jean,
Thanks for the info.. your source, is also a friend..

Hi Alan,
I would like to know how we can tell the difference between fossil molars and non-fossil molars? How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

Battara · 5th December 2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

This is also what I want to know. Is there any research on this or just folklore. I understood that among it's talismanic properties is protection against bullets and the evil eye. However, I have not seen any documentation.

5th December 2010, 05:02 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed Greetings! I have heard of fossil molar being used for its talismanic properties in keris and other Indonesian pieces. The problem is I can't find any research on the topic. Can you folks stir me in the right direction for documentation and research please?

5th December 2010, 03:25 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This subject was raised in another thread and I got some interesting information from my Javanese friend from Yogyakarta who trades this materials and I would like to share it with you in order to stimulate the discussion: According to him, there are 2 types of fossil elephant/mamoouth molar, namely the hard one and the soft one, and only the soft type can be used for making kris hilts or warangkas. One possible interpretation (uncontrolled opinion only) could be that the hard fossil type is older than the soft one due to mineralization? Also according to him the materials comes from Sumatra (from fossil or more recently dead elephants?) and since recently also from Russia (Siberia) where a lot of frozen mamooths can be found (not fossil ones since they were perfectly preserved under the ice or frozen ground). The Russian molar materials is worked in Bali especially. I attach a picture of the raw material, which has a yellowish colour with white and darker stripes, and a sample of a finished Javanese hilt & warangka. In order to enhance the colour contrast, some traders dye the pieces by dipping it into a potassium permanganate solution which has a purple colour. Upon contact with air, the unstable permanganate compound is chemically reduced to manganese oxide which has a brown colour and is stable. I attach a picture of such a dyed piece, so the difference in colour between some pieces would not be due to their age as I wrongly said earlier but to a dying treatment. I personally wonder whether these pieces are actually fossil ones or not, or may be both? Best regards Jean Attached Images

5th December 2010, 08:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I don't know of any "research", but I've handled the raw material I know how its found, where its found, how its worked, what its deficiencies are what the price of raw material is, what the cost of working it is, etc, etc, etc. I also know it is damned unstable and something that you think is a perfect item can develop cracks, chips, splits even when kept in a protected environment. What do you want to know?

5th December 2010, 02:35 PM	#3
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi! Everybody, Dear allan Not interferring, I'd love to know the regions where theses 'fossils' can be found. Best regards

5th December 2010, 04:04 PM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Jean, Thanks for the info.. your source, is also a friend.. Hi Alan, I would like to know how we can tell the difference between fossil molars and non-fossil molars? How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties? I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..