Dapur of this Javanese keris?

BluErf · 6th April 2010, 02:14 PM

Dear forumnites,

Not sure if I have asked the question in this forum before, but can anyone tell me what dapur is this keris? Thanks.

ganjawulung · 6th April 2010, 02:55 PM

Seven luks, with details of gandhik 'lugas' (without sekar kacang), tikel alis, pejetan, sraweyan, ada-ada in the middle of the blade. Then IMHO, it could be a "jaran guyang", but had been modified a little bit. Because a "jaran guyang" should have greneng, but this could have been modified. There is also trace of change on the 'wadidang' side above the 'should be' greneng. It should be no trace of "ron dha nunut"...

The naming of the dhapur itself, literally means "horse" (jaran) "taken a bath" (guyang, this word is used especially for animal, not for human)...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2010, 11:26 PM

Kai Wee, would it be possible for us to see the top of the gonjo?

The wadidang seems to have a series of notches cut into it. It looks peculiar. Can you see what has happened there?

Is the gandik as steeply angled as it appears to be in the photos?

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 01:01 AM

Yes, steep angle ("mboto rubuh") at the gandhik -- and even steeper and visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik, is questionable. Just for comparison, the illustration of dhapur Jaran Guyang (from Mr Haryono Guritno's Keris Jawa book)....

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2010, 03:04 AM

Pak Ganja, my query was addressed to Kai Wee:- only he can confirm if that gandik is as steeply angled as it appears to be, because only he has access to the physical keris.

I disagree that it is

"---visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik---"

in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker.

Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik????

I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles?

I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in , say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 03:48 AM

I apologize, Alan. Then, after Kai Wee' response, I will respond to your post. Thanks a lot...

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker..

I've asked someone, of course the more knowledgeable person on keris than me, then yes, Alan, I should agree with you on this.. Even that from the peculiar style of luks, it is not impossible that this kind of luks is supposed to be a "pengging" style. Also from the characteristic of the blade, "wilah nglimpa" (I don't know to translate this in English), this blade also has one characteristic of "pengging" style too... (although some part of the blade have changing, i.e the notches at the wadidang...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik????
I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles?
I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in, say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

The classification of "mboto rubuh" (falling brick? Correct it if I'm mistaken) and "mboto ngadeg" or "amboto ngadeg" (upright, errect brick) applied in kerises with "gandhik lugas" or no sekar kacang in the "front face" of a keris. And Yes, as Mr Haryono Guritno wrote also in his book "Keris Jawa" (page 166) "amboto rubuh" and "amboto ngadeg" is used for mentioning types (ragam) of "pejetan" or "blumbangan" form of a keris.
On applying the term for gandhik? Yes, some people (might be mistakenly) use this term -- because everytime if we look at kerises with "gandhik lugas", we then automatically classify the kerises, whether they are "amboto ngadeg" or "amboto rubuh"... This "mistakenly usage" also mentioned in Mr Harsrinuksmo's book of Ensiklopedi Keris. Even, Mr Harsrinuksmo described (page 165) that "...khusus untuk gandik yang polos" (especially for gandhik without sekar kacang) "there are two types, those are "amboto rubuh" or "amboto sumende" (leaning brick), and "amboto ngadeg"...
On the meaning of "gandhik" itself, Mr Harsrinuksmo even described in his book that it means literally, as millstone (long and cylindric form of stone, for crushing...).
Why I quote the two writers? As I'm not an expertise on keris, I quote the more knowledgeable people than me. AFAIK, both of them have and had involved so intense in keris world for so long...

Thanks Alan, for your sharing...

GANJAWULUNG

6th April 2010, 02:14 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dapur of this Javanese keris? Dear forumnites, Not sure if I have asked the question in this forum before, but can anyone tell me what dapur is this keris? Thanks. Attached Images

6th April 2010, 02:55 PM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	JARAN GUYANG? Seven luks, with details of gandhik 'lugas' (without sekar kacang), tikel alis, pejetan, sraweyan, ada-ada in the middle of the blade. Then IMHO, it could be a "jaran guyang", but had been modified a little bit. Because a "jaran guyang" should have greneng, but this could have been modified. There is also trace of change on the 'wadidang' side above the 'should be' greneng. It should be no trace of "ron dha nunut"... The naming of the dhapur itself, literally means "horse" (jaran) "taken a bath" (guyang, this word is used especially for animal, not for human)... GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 6th April 2010 at 03:42 PM.

7th April 2010, 01:01 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Comparison Yes, steep angle ("mboto rubuh") at the gandhik -- and even steeper and visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik, is questionable. Just for comparison, the illustration of dhapur Jaran Guyang (from Mr Haryono Guritno's Keris Jawa book).... Attached Images

6th April 2010, 11:26 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,750	Kai Wee, would it be possible for us to see the top of the gonjo? The wadidang seems to have a series of notches cut into it. It looks peculiar. Can you see what has happened there? Is the gandik as steeply angled as it appears to be in the photos?

7th April 2010, 03:04 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,750	Pak Ganja, my query was addressed to Kai Wee:- only he can confirm if that gandik is as steeply angled as it appears to be, because only he has access to the physical keris. I disagree that it is "---visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik---" in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker. Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik???? I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles? I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in , say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

7th April 2010, 03:48 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	I apologize, Alan. Then, after Kai Wee' response, I will respond to your post. Thanks a lot...