A tiny cannon for ID and coments

fernando · 13th July 2008, 07:33 PM

I wouldn't know on what tipology tis small cannon falls ... assuming i can call it a cannon.
We can say the previous owner didn't need to clean it so much ... despite most probably being full of rust.
Height 18 cms (7"). Diameter 7 cms (2 3/4"). Bore about 4 cms. (1 1/2").
Weight around 3,5 Kilos (7 pounds) ... the kitchen scale couldn't make it right.
A thin sleeve is lining the barrel, most probably a reinforcement (steel) to resist wear.
The seller says is portuguese, as he bought it in Portugal; i have no reason(or knowledge) not to beleive so. He also says it is from the 16/17th century, as it was the period this type was used, but i wouldn't know.
Coments on these particular assumptions and also in general will be so much welcome.
Fernando

Atlantia · 13th July 2008, 10:46 PM

Hi Fernando.

Do you think its a hand-cannon?

I've no experience of sleeved cannon barrels, but many barrels are made from a sheet which is rolled around a core (which is removed of course), I've only had experience of this on much later weapons, but the principal would be the same and oxidisation could certainly cause the inner layer to look similar to your piece.

BTW, I would think it was earlier if its a hand cannon.

katana · 13th July 2008, 11:24 PM

Hi Fernando,
interesting item, this picture of a hand cannon seems to also have that 'inner lining'

David

fernando · 13th July 2008, 11:30 PM

Hi David,
Fascinating !!!
Where did you find this ?
I beg you to tell a zillion things about it.
... Like dimensions ... age ... link or book ... and so on ?
Fernando

Rick · 13th July 2008, 11:39 PM

As long as there has been gunpowder people have used it for both celebration and war ; d'you suppose this could be a signal cannon of some sort ?
Imagine a reusable firecracker .

fernando · 14th July 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

... d'you suppose this could be a signal cannon of some sort ?

I would think so, Rick. I slightly remember reading somewhere that they used small cannons in fleet ships, to signal one another, like for transmiting or comanding tatic maneuvres ( as also for saluting ?), but i am not certain of the correct story and also if this is such specific thing. It appears they (mine)function/s on the upright position.
Let's see what David comes up with. The specimen he showed seems to be a similar implement ... providing, for a start, its dimensions are also reduced.
It certainly is also very old; we're talking centuries here, right ?
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 14th July 2008, 04:35 PM

Hi Fernando,
My knowledge of older firearms is limited but I am of the opinion that this must be a signaling mortar of some sort. A cannon that would be used to fire a projectile in any way effectively would have a much smaller diameter touchhole, even taking into account wear and tear and corrosion over the years, and probably a longer barrel to bore ratio. The size of the touchhole on this example would be more suited to, as you say, a fuse e.g. hemp impregnated with saltpetre or a thin tube filled with black powder. Hope this is of some assistance.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 14th July 2008, 04:57 PM

Wise words, Norman

You must be quite right. I have just come to observe that the recipee for signal cannons (mortars) is powder, plug (no ball) and fuse cord.

Thenk ye ... or Moran taing ... or Tapadh leat ... or Gun robh math agad

... What a wide offer from the translating website

Fernando

Norman McCormick · 14th July 2008, 07:49 PM

Hi Fernando,
You're most welcome, I'm a Lowland Scot and although I have old Irish and Western Isles ancestry ( Ulster, Isle of Mull and the Isle of Barra ) I don't, as they say, 'have the Gaelic'. I really appreciate your time and effort in digging up the Gaelic phrases but I too had to revert to an online dictionary for a translation from Gaelic to English!!!! In Scotland, as I suspect in many countries, the people in the North, South, East and West are separated by a common language, English in many varieties, except for the Gaels of course who are united by a common language. Anyhow it is nice when ones post is acknowledged in whatever language. My regards, Norman.

katana · 14th July 2008, 10:49 PM

Hi Fernando,
I think Atlantia may be right about your piece. It may be an 'optical illusion' but there appears to be evidence (on the surface of the iron) that bands once held the cannon to a handle (see pictures below). I know the general agreement is that this is a signalling 'device' (and it probably is) but if a 'maritime' item ..this would 'double-up' nicely as a grape shot/ 'shrapnal' hand cannon ...useful for clearing the 'decks'. Most Navys of the time, would not want to laden their sailing ships unnecessarily (little space and the excess weight would impede speed and manoeuvrability) so items tended to have a 'dual purpose' ....or in your cannon's case a 'duel purpose'

Kind Regards David

M ELEY · 15th July 2008, 08:52 PM

David does have a good point about dual usage as both a signal mortar and mounted hand cannon. Ships did, as mentioned, have space issues when it came to armament. Small mounted swivel guns (miniature deck cannons) were popular for this purpose and likewise, some literature supports the fact that even larger mortars (the portable Coehorn, which fired an exploding shell filled with little grapeshot) made it on board ships. The reason I had initially questioned it as a hand-cannon was due to its short length. However, for shipboard use and "clearing the deck", it wouldn't need to be very long (same reason blunderbus were so popular; close-range spread of projectiles). One last comment, though. Is there any possibility that the band-pattern we are seeing might have been bands encircling the cannon to strengthen it? As items on a ship became worn, repairs were done to naturally extend their working life, if possible.

BBJW · 19th July 2008, 03:27 AM

I'd say this is probably a signal cannon. These small ones were often used to make noise to alert other ships in the dark or fog etc.

bbjw

fernando · 19th July 2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBJW

I'd say this is probably a signal cannon. These small ones were often used to make noise to alert other ships in the dark or fog etc.

bbjw

Now you caught me, BBJW

I feel a bit dizzy with this sudden turning back to square one

.
You mean you don't find consistence in the aproach made by the guy from Traditional Muzzleloading Forum ? (my post #24). Also the example shown by Gene in post #12, plus the fact that this particularly cilindrical barrel doesn't have a wider base to sustain it upright, as usually seen in signal cannons (thunder mugs and so), made me (and others) think this was a hand cannon (or mortar).
But of course this issue is still open for further coments and new evidence.
Could you BBJW, extend a bit your point of view ? Are you familiar with some of these things?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

fernando · 19th July 2008, 06:36 PM

Some more examples of hand cannons.

kronckew · 19th July 2008, 07:22 PM

i feel it's a hand cannon myself, the rough bore would not be unusual after all these years of relative neglect and corrosion, probably was a bit more regular when 1st made & used.

they'd use pretty crude powder, grass wadding and convenient sized rocks for ammo, iron and lead shot is a much later application for sophisticated matchlock and later wheel locks when bores could be controlled better during mfg to reduce windage...

additionally, it was expected that the odd hand cannon or two would blow up (variance in powder quality, payload, corrosion due to poor cleaning, poor craftsmanship techniques, double loading*, etc. one reason fro a LONG stick. the bands not only held it to the stick, but kept some of the chunks of a burst barrel from zapping the shooter or those alongside.

the short barrel while not allowing maximum velocity, would give less chance of a shot sticking or jamming and blowing up the device, while still producing a satisfactory BOOM, smoke and such to frighten the horses, and if really lucky actually have the projectile hit and damage an armoured man.

of course my muzzle loading experience started with cap and ball rifled muskets & pistols, a much more modern approach.

*- one rather embarrassed yankee pvt. in the civil war was noted to have loaded his musket about a dozen times without actually firing it, each load rammed down on the previous one. luckily he DIDN'T remember to cap it before he pulled the trigger or it might have been less humorous... of course the confederates would never do such a thing

, wastes ammo.

fernando · 20th July 2008, 12:56 AM

Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne.
This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture.
... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case

Fernando

BBJW · 21st July 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Now you caught me, BBJW

I feel a bit dizzy with this sudden turning back to square one

.
You mean you don't find consistence in the aproach made by the guy from Traditional Muzzleloading Forum ? (my post #24). Also the example shown by Gene in post #12, plus the fact that this particularly cilindrical barrel doesn't have a wider base to sustain it upright, as usually seen in signal cannons (thunder mugs and so), made me (and others) think this was a hand cannon (or mortar).
But of course this issue is still open for further coments and new evidence.
Could you BBJW, extend a bit your point of view ? Are you familiar with some of these things?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

I have seen very similar ones for sale in old auction catalogs and Flayderman and Co. catalogs as signal mortars. At this point you could call it whatever you wanted to. If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

fernando · 21st July 2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBJW

...If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

That would be great, thanks.
Fernando

fernando · 26th July 2008, 07:05 PM

This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed

The barrel has 27 cms. and is made of hot welded staves. The whole thing, barrel and pole, measures 1,24 mts.
The tag doesn't mention its caliber, but we can see it's quite a large one, close from my example, i would say. Also the touch hole is quite significant in size, meaning that after some shooting and degradation could well become as large as the one in my specimen.
The legend in the tag confirms that these things were handled by two men; one holding the pole under the arm and pointing the barrel mouth to the enemy lines and the "bota-fogo" (an expression that became legendary), a guy with the slow match, to detonate the device. Also as already aproached here, the accuracy of the shot was very limited, but the psichologic efect of the noise, the black smoke shadow and the smell of burnt sulphur, provoked in the spirit of medieval man the conviction that he was in the presence of devil's work.
Fernando

13th July 2008, 11:24 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, interesting item, this picture of a hand cannon seems to also have that 'inner lining' David Attached Images

14th July 2008, 10:49 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, I think Atlantia may be right about your piece. It may be an 'optical illusion' but there appears to be evidence (on the surface of the iron) that bands once held the cannon to a handle (see pictures below). I know the general agreement is that this is a signalling 'device' (and it probably is) but if a 'maritime' item ..this would 'double-up' nicely as a grape shot/ 'shrapnal' hand cannon ...useful for clearing the 'decks'. Most Navys of the time, would not want to laden their sailing ships unnecessarily (little space and the excess weight would impede speed and manoeuvrability) so items tended to have a 'dual purpose' ....or in your cannon's case a 'duel purpose' Kind Regards David Attached Images

19th July 2008, 06:36 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	Some more examples of hand cannons. Attached Images

19th July 2008, 07:22 PM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,154	i feel it's a hand cannon myself, the rough bore would not be unusual after all these years of relative neglect and corrosion, probably was a bit more regular when 1st made & used. they'd use pretty crude powder, grass wadding and convenient sized rocks for ammo, iron and lead shot is a much later application for sophisticated matchlock and later wheel locks when bores could be controlled better during mfg to reduce windage... additionally, it was expected that the odd hand cannon or two would blow up (variance in powder quality, payload, corrosion due to poor cleaning, poor craftsmanship techniques, double loading, etc. one reason fro a LONG stick. the bands not only held it to the stick, but kept some of the chunks of a burst barrel from zapping the shooter or those alongside. the short barrel while not allowing maximum velocity, would give less chance of a shot sticking or jamming and blowing up the device, while still producing a satisfactory BOOM, smoke and such to frighten the horses, and if really lucky actually have the projectile hit and damage an armoured man. of course my muzzle loading experience started with cap and ball rifled muskets & pistols, a much more modern approach. - one rather embarrassed yankee pvt. in the civil war was noted to have loaded his musket about a dozen times without actually firing it, each load rammed down on the previous one. luckily he DIDN'T remember to cap it before he pulled the trigger or it might have been less humorous... of course the confederates would never do such a thing , wastes ammo. Last edited by kronckew; 19th July 2008 at 07:37 PM.

20th July 2008, 12:56 AM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne. This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture. ... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case Fernando Attached Images

13th July 2008, 07:33 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	A tiny cannon for ID and coments I wouldn't know on what tipology tis small cannon falls ... assuming i can call it a cannon. We can say the previous owner didn't need to clean it so much ... despite most probably being full of rust. Height 18 cms (7"). Diameter 7 cms (2 3/4"). Bore about 4 cms. (1 1/2"). Weight around 3,5 Kilos (7 pounds) ... the kitchen scale couldn't make it right. A thin sleeve is lining the barrel, most probably a reinforcement (steel) to resist wear. The seller says is portuguese, as he bought it in Portugal; i have no reason(or knowledge) not to beleive so. He also says it is from the 16/17th century, as it was the period this type was used, but i wouldn't know. Coments on these particular assumptions and also in general will be so much welcome. Fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 13th July 2008 at 07:49 PM. Reason: pictures reviewed

13th July 2008, 10:46 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Fernando. Do you think its a hand-cannon? I've no experience of sleeved cannon barrels, but many barrels are made from a sheet which is rolled around a core (which is removed of course), I've only had experience of this on much later weapons, but the principal would be the same and oxidisation could certainly cause the inner layer to look similar to your piece. BTW, I would think it was earlier if its a hand cannon. Last edited by Atlantia; 13th July 2008 at 11:20 PM.

13th July 2008, 11:30 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	Hi David, Fascinating !!! Where did you find this ? I beg you to tell a zillion things about it. ... Like dimensions ... age ... link or book ... and so on ? Fernando

13th July 2008, 11:39 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	As long as there has been gunpowder people have used it for both celebration and war ; d'you suppose this could be a signal cannon of some sort ? Imagine a reusable firecracker .

14th July 2008, 04:35 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Fernando, My knowledge of older firearms is limited but I am of the opinion that this must be a signaling mortar of some sort. A cannon that would be used to fire a projectile in any way effectively would have a much smaller diameter touchhole, even taking into account wear and tear and corrosion over the years, and probably a longer barrel to bore ratio. The size of the touchhole on this example would be more suited to, as you say, a fuse e.g. hemp impregnated with saltpetre or a thin tube filled with black powder. Hope this is of some assistance. Regards, Norman.

14th July 2008, 04:57 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	Wise words, Norman You must be quite right. I have just come to observe that the recipee for signal cannons (mortars) is powder, plug (no ball) and fuse cord. Thenk ye ... or Moran taing ... or Tapadh leat ... or Gun robh math agad ... What a wide offer from the translating website Fernando

14th July 2008, 07:49 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Fernando, You're most welcome, I'm a Lowland Scot and although I have old Irish and Western Isles ancestry ( Ulster, Isle of Mull and the Isle of Barra ) I don't, as they say, 'have the Gaelic'. I really appreciate your time and effort in digging up the Gaelic phrases but I too had to revert to an online dictionary for a translation from Gaelic to English!!!! In Scotland, as I suspect in many countries, the people in the North, South, East and West are separated by a common language, English in many varieties, except for the Gaels of course who are united by a common language. Anyhow it is nice when ones post is acknowledged in whatever language. My regards, Norman.

15th July 2008, 08:52 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	David does have a good point about dual usage as both a signal mortar and mounted hand cannon. Ships did, as mentioned, have space issues when it came to armament. Small mounted swivel guns (miniature deck cannons) were popular for this purpose and likewise, some literature supports the fact that even larger mortars (the portable Coehorn, which fired an exploding shell filled with little grapeshot) made it on board ships. The reason I had initially questioned it as a hand-cannon was due to its short length. However, for shipboard use and "clearing the deck", it wouldn't need to be very long (same reason blunderbus were so popular; close-range spread of projectiles). One last comment, though. Is there any possibility that the band-pattern we are seeing might have been bands encircling the cannon to strengthen it? As items on a ship became worn, repairs were done to naturally extend their working life, if possible.

19th July 2008, 03:27 AM	#12
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 226	signal cannon I'd say this is probably a signal cannon. These small ones were often used to make noise to alert other ships in the dark or fog etc. bbjw

26th July 2008, 07:05 PM	#19
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,657	This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed The barrel has 27 cms. and is made of hot welded staves. The whole thing, barrel and pole, measures 1,24 mts. The tag doesn't mention its caliber, but we can see it's quite a large one, close from my example, i would say. Also the touch hole is quite significant in size, meaning that after some shooting and degradation could well become as large as the one in my specimen. The legend in the tag confirms that these things were handled by two men; one holding the pole under the arm and pointing the barrel mouth to the enemy lines and the "bota-fogo" (an expression that became legendary), a guy with the slow match, to detonate the device. Also as already aproached here, the accuracy of the shot was very limited, but the psichologic efect of the noise, the black smoke shadow and the smell of burnt sulphur, provoked in the spirit of medieval man the conviction that he was in the presence of devil's work. Fernando Attached Images