Hilt Replacement on an Indian Dagger.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th September 2011, 05:01 PM

Salaams,
This Indian Dagger needed to be reworked as the hilt was wrong. Either it was a punch dagger which had been broken and rejigged together with the shortened hilt turned sideways or an Indian Khanjar fitted with a broken punch dagger hilt(kattar). We had several problems in that the tang was very short and what sort of hilt it should have? We had available some mysterious solid horn tips which I think are standard cow horn..which have polished up nicely with a light grey green olive hue. We used silver pins to mirror the design of the blade decoration and finished the pommel off in simple silver. The scabbard has not yet evolved..but I think green velvet over a wooden core with silver filigree furniture at toe and throat.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.
Note; Picture 3 and 4 are true to colour wheras the last two came out strangely pink !!

Lew · 24th September 2011, 05:31 PM

Ibrahiim

It looks as if you reversed the grip on the dagger? Sorry but it looks upside down and it breaks up the natural flow of the design

otherwise very nice work on the silver inlay

Atlantia · 24th September 2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Ibrahiim

It looks as if you reversed the grip on the dagger? Sorry but it looks upside down and it breaks up the natural flow of the design

otherwise very nice work on the silver inlay

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ibrahiim,

If you haven't already cemented it in place, I'd have the blade the other way up.
TBH, if it's removable in any way, I'd definately flip it

I have to say that the modified Katar grip cut and turned sideways is unique in my experience.
I actually wonder if it is a period hybrid?
I wonder because the Koftgari seems similar on both pieces (blade and hilt) and on the top hilt bars it looks to curve around where the bar ends suggesting application in this incarnation.
To me it looks like it was meant to be a make-shift Chilanum.

Was the hilt solidly fixed?

An interesting thing definately.

Best
Gene

A.alnakkas · 24th September 2011, 08:46 PM

Salam Ibrahim, Shloonik wild 3ami?

I agree with Gene and Lew, Reversing the hilt would make a better flow!

Off-topic: Can you make scabbards for swords?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim, Shloonik wild 3ami?

I agree with Gene and Lew, Reversing the hilt would make a better flow!

Off-topic: Can you make scabbards for swords?

Salaams...

I dont know how the hilt got placed upside down ...perhaps we have a Djinn on this project !! Actually there was a lot of debate and it looks better as it is ...

We make scabbards all the time ... wooden core surround in hand tooled leather .. Ibrahiim

A.alnakkas · 25th September 2011, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams...

I dont know how the hilt got placed upside down ...perhaps we have a Djinn on this project !! Actually there was a lot of debate and it looks better as it is ...

We make scabbards all the time ... wooden core surround in hand tooled leather .. Ibrahiim

Cant wait to see it reversed!

I'll send an email to you now regarding a scabbard.

Abdullatif

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ibrahiim,

If you haven't already cemented it in place, I'd have the blade the other way up.
TBH, if it's removable in any way, I'd definately flip it

I have to say that the modified Katar grip cut and turned sideways is unique in my experience.
I actually wonder if it is a period hybrid?
I wonder because the Koftgari seems similar on both pieces (blade and hilt) and on the top hilt bars it looks to curve around where the bar ends suggesting application in this incarnation.
To me it looks like it was meant to be a make-shift Chilanum.

Was the hilt solidly fixed?

An interesting thing definately.

Best
Gene

Salaams,

Certainly it was some sort of modification with half a katar hilt and an Indian dagger blade... The tang being snapped short almost non existant and useless as a weapon. Being only half a hilt the ballance was off. We added a tang to the blade and fixed the new hilt with pitch. Now it is well ballanced and tight. Thank you for your input.

Regards Ibrahiim.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th September 2011, 09:55 PM

Could you please make detailed pictures of the two first pictures, showing the decoration clearly (without reflection), and also showing the to of the hilt.
I agree with the others that the blade should be turned when it comes to the pistol hilted dagger/blade.
Jens
PS. BTW I don't think I would have removed the old hilt.

kahnjar1 · 24th September 2011, 11:08 PM

I agree with Jens. The original looks to be a match. All we have now IMHO is a modern made replica and a probable trap for future collectors who think they have an original.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 08:09 AM

Salaams,
I agree with all the replies..to some extent. However;

The decoration on the original 'half hilt' matches the blade decoration however the hilt was only 50 % intact thus the decision to explore a restoration with a fresh hilt. Luckily this is not a problem since pitch is used in the fix therefor its very easy to change, modify or revert back. We considered to flip the hilt the other way but it does not look or feel right.

The initial design included some green gemstone work but we discounted that ~ perhaps I will integrate them into the scabbard.

It is always a consideration when restoring whether to proceed but since we have done I feel the effect is not bad ... naturally any work done is written up and goes with the items history so there is no attempt to cover its true ID. On the contrary since this project is able to be easily reversed since the fix is simply pitch. The original hilt is half missing and could make a restoration project in its own right however it is part of the history of this dagger so it stays with it..

I suspect that the koftgari work on the blade may have been done at a later stage to the old hilt koftgari ...

I believe punch daggers were often made from broken swords so perhaps that is how these two originally became linked. Now to switch or not to switch round that hilt !

Regards Ibrahi im al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I agree with Jens. The original looks to be a match. All we have now IMHO is a modern made replica and a probable trap for future collectors who think they have an original.
Stu

Salaams,
Thank you for your input. As you are aware we certificate every modification. You also know that most Omani Khanjars, for example, have their hilts switched sometimes several times and that after battles the winner takes all concept meant that many blade and hilt combinations changed according to the wishes of the winning side.. Hilt switch in many ways can enhance a weapon. In any case this weapon was a rusted, wobbly, old wreck with no scabbard and a broken, fragmentary hilt and no tang ! We think this Indian Khanjar is now rightly teamed up with its correct hilt style.
It is always a difficult decision to go ahead with a replacement restoration but we think we have got this one right since it was never a workable katar dagger and the fragmented hilt just failed to keep the weapon in circulation... "We either restore or chuck it away" was almost the choice.
Now we have a reasonable Indian Khanjar properly re-tanged and fitted with pitch and with its removed old hilt by its side and all supporting docs. The client seems to appreciate the work. We believe that this is allowable restoration though we weighed this one up for many months before we gave it the green light..

Indian Khanjar. Mid 19th C. Blade with recent replacement Hilt and new tang.. Restoration including Silver pin decoration done in Oman( July/August 2011), reflecting the beautiful, Koftgari work on the blade.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas · 25th September 2011, 12:51 PM

I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

Shukran Jazeelan yaa Ustadh !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Could you please make detailed pictures of the two first pictures, showing the decoration clearly (without reflection), and also showing the to of the hilt.
I agree with the others that the blade should be turned when it comes to the pistol hilted dagger/blade.
Jens
PS. BTW I don't think I would have removed the old hilt.

Salaams Jens,

I have some pictures without flash but Im not sure they are any better..
I believe the two Koftgari designs on hilt and blade are different as the hilt design carries prominent + + cross symbols but the blade design has non. Florally they are similar. It occured to me that these are from two different weapons 1. Blade from an Indian Khanjar and 2. Hilt from a Katar dagger.

The Katar Hilt fragment seems to be modified as a dagger hilt. I cannot be certain but I suspect that the Koftgari work on the hilt was also done after the match up with the blade. To confuse matters the Koftgari work in the hilt uprights is not consistent on all sides neither is the work on the toe and top of the hilt the same.. The main problem with the hilt is its fragmentary nature seemingly only about 50 % of a katar hilt, somewhat light, weak and wobbly and off balance. Another approach would have been to restore the Katar hilt but Im afraid that was beyond our expertise. That combined with a miniscule tang led us to look at a new hilt project.

We looked at the balance and feel of the new hilt and fitted it accordingly. Putting the hilt the other way round felt odd... We deliberately went for this fit as the best option. Naturally having used pitch to fix blade/hilt the whole project can be reversed but it seems like a good balanced tight fix. so we may stick with it !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th November 2011, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
This Indian Dagger needed to be reworked as the hilt was wrong. Either it was a punch dagger which had been broken and rejigged together with the shortened hilt turned sideways or an Indian Khanjar fitted with a broken punch dagger hilt(kattar). We had several problems in that the tang was very short and what sort of hilt it should have? We had available some mysterious solid horn tips which I think are standard cow horn..which have polished up nicely with a light grey green olive hue. We used silver pins to mirror the design of the blade decoration and finished the pommel off in simple silver. The scabbard has not yet evolved..but I think green velvet over a wooden core with silver filigree furniture at toe and throat.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.
Note; Picture 3 and 4 are true to colour wheras the last two came out strangely pink !!

Salaams...

It now appears that the blade is from an Indian Chillanum of the variety "recurved blade"... whilst the previous miss matched rehilt came from a punch dagger. Regards, Ibrahiim.

Atlantia · 9th November 2011, 09:56 AM

Hi Ibrahiim,

Did you flip the hilt in the end?

Best
Gene

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th November 2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Ibrahiim,

Did you flip the hilt in the end?

Best
Gene

Salaams Gene,
No Gene I decided to leave it unflipped.

Regards Ibrahiim.

24th September 2011, 05:01 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Hilt Replacement on an Indian Dagger. Salaams, This Indian Dagger needed to be reworked as the hilt was wrong. Either it was a punch dagger which had been broken and rejigged together with the shortened hilt turned sideways or an Indian Khanjar fitted with a broken punch dagger hilt(kattar). We had several problems in that the tang was very short and what sort of hilt it should have? We had available some mysterious solid horn tips which I think are standard cow horn..which have polished up nicely with a light grey green olive hue. We used silver pins to mirror the design of the blade decoration and finished the pommel off in simple silver. The scabbard has not yet evolved..but I think green velvet over a wooden core with silver filigree furniture at toe and throat. Regards, Ibrahiim. Note; Picture 3 and 4 are true to colour wheras the last two came out strangely pink !! Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th September 2011 at 05:36 PM.

25th September 2011, 08:09 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	HILT REPLACEMENT Salaams, I agree with all the replies..to some extent. However; The decoration on the original 'half hilt' matches the blade decoration however the hilt was only 50 % intact thus the decision to explore a restoration with a fresh hilt. Luckily this is not a problem since pitch is used in the fix therefor its very easy to change, modify or revert back. We considered to flip the hilt the other way but it does not look or feel right. The initial design included some green gemstone work but we discounted that ~ perhaps I will integrate them into the scabbard. It is always a consideration when restoring whether to proceed but since we have done I feel the effect is not bad ... naturally any work done is written up and goes with the items history so there is no attempt to cover its true ID. On the contrary since this project is able to be easily reversed since the fix is simply pitch. The original hilt is half missing and could make a restoration project in its own right however it is part of the history of this dagger so it stays with it.. I suspect that the koftgari work on the blade may have been done at a later stage to the old hilt koftgari ... I believe punch daggers were often made from broken swords so perhaps that is how these two originally became linked. Now to switch or not to switch round that hilt ! Regards Ibrahi im al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th September 2011 at 08:42 AM.

24th September 2011, 05:31 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ibrahiim It looks as if you reversed the grip on the dagger? Sorry but it looks upside down and it breaks up the natural flow of the design otherwise very nice work on the silver inlay

24th September 2011, 08:46 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Salam Ibrahim, Shloonik wild 3ami? I agree with Gene and Lew, Reversing the hilt would make a better flow! Off-topic: Can you make scabbards for swords?

24th September 2011, 09:55 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	Could you please make detailed pictures of the two first pictures, showing the decoration clearly (without reflection), and also showing the to of the hilt. I agree with the others that the blade should be turned when it comes to the pistol hilted dagger/blade. Jens PS. BTW I don't think I would have removed the old hilt.

24th September 2011, 11:08 PM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,731	I agree with Jens. The original looks to be a match. All we have now IMHO is a modern made replica and a probable trap for future collectors who think they have an original. Stu

25th September 2011, 12:51 PM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

9th November 2011, 09:56 AM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Ibrahiim, Did you flip the hilt in the end? Best Gene