Introduction and Assistance request - Naga Sasra 11 Luk?

[JayHasAKeris]

Hello dear Vikingsword community and especially hello dear Keris enthusiasts,

thanks for having me in your community As this is my first post, a few brief words about me. I like collecting beautiful knives and swords. Not necessarily for their historic value, but because I think they are pretty. Think Manfred Sache, german damascus steel smith, for example.

Around 30ish years ago, I bought a Keris at a knife fare. I just thought it looked pretty, it was a nice wavy dagger that seemed pretty old and it was an example of south east asian steel that looked a bit like the damascus steel I so adore. The Keris has been in my possession ever since, but I never really bothered much with it. However, I have recently decided to research its history a bit... and have discovered that this is an incredibly complicated topic :O In my search for a community passionate about this subject, I have stumbled across your community. I thank you in advance for the chance to present this Keris to you and I hope you can help me gather some information about it. My preliminary research has taught me that this might be called an 11 Luk Naga Sasra Keris? However, please note that I am incredibly new to this field of research. I am sure, some trained eyes can immediately see a lot of things that would take me years to find out. So: thank you for lending me your trained eyes

Any information will be appreciated If more pictures might be helpful, let me know!

Thanks in advance

Jay

[Rick]

I think the Gonjo is missing on this blade (no Grening* to speak of).
The Gonjo is a separate piece that fits on the base of the blade and follows the same humped curvature and usually carries the file work *(Grening) that is seen on the trailing edge of the blade as below..

[JayHasAKeris]

That seems to be the case! This is all I got, so I will have to live with that I guess Still a beautiful blade I think! I hope some things can still be learned about it from the other pieces

Originally Posted by Rick

I think the Gonjo is missing on this blade (no Grening* to speak of).
The Gonjo is a separate piece that fits on the base of the blade and follows the same humped curvature and usually carries the file work *(Grening) that is seen on the trailing edge of the blade as below..

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I would accept Naga Sasra, luk 11, as an acceptable description, probably originally in Jogja ( Jogjakarta, Ngayogyakarta & other spellings) dress. This form is often associated with the late Mataram period, +/-1700 & later, it is not possible for me to give an opinion on age from photographs.

As Rick has noted, the gonjo is missing, in Jawa it would be a simple job to have a replacement made, outside of Jawa, if one cannot make it oneself, it is best left as is.

Not a bad keris, does it have a scabbard(wrongko, warangka)?

[JayHasAKeris]

Thank you very much for your insight

Yes, the gonjo is definitely missing. The keris is exactly as it was when I bought it (except for some camellia oil treatments). So sadly I apparently bought it without a gonjo... as I am rather far from Jawa, I suppose it will have to stay this way a while! It also came without a scabbard, what you see is what I got. As I said I just thought "nice wavy dagger" for decades... feels a bit silly already after just a couple weeks of research (felt silly after a single day of research...), but hey, at least I can start finally appreciating it properly now, better late than never! It was the last piece in my collection I knew nothing about, but it turned out to be one of the most interesting pieces.

You mention it being in Jogja (I will take that spelling, you are most certainly more knowledgable than me on this subject ) dress... is there reason to believe the blade would be from somewhere else?

And seriously, this could be over a hundred years old? Wow, that is fascinating If it's not possible to tell more by photos, would you be able to point me in the right direction on where and how to learn more about it? Or is there any more to be learned about the keris from the pictures?

Thank you guys for your time

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, I would accept Naga Sasra, luk 11, as an acceptable description, probably originally in Jogja ( Jogjakarta, Ngayogyakarta & other spellings) dress. This form is often associated with the late Mataram period, +/-1700 & later, it is not possible for me to give an opinion on age from photographs.

As Rick has noted, the gonjo is missing, in Jawa it would be a simple job to have a replacement made, outside of Jawa, if one cannot make it oneself, it is best left as is.

Not a bad keris, does it have a scabbard(wrongko, warangka)?

[David]

Hi Jay. Welcome to the forum. It is a shame that the gonjo is missing from this keris, but it is still a nice and authentic naga keris. Just to be clear, what i believe Alan was getting at when he stated that he could not give a good opinion of age based solely on the photographs is that this is a form that, when made correctly, has maintained a very exacting form since it's introduction into the keris world sometime +/- 1700. I would not think youyr particular example to be as old as 1700s, but it would probably be safe to say it is at least antique (100+ yrs. old).
To understand this keris better you may want to acquaint yourself with the symbolism and significance of the naga/nogo within Javanese society of the period. Naga is often translated as "dragon", but it is more serpent-like than a dragon. Though i generally hate AI overviews, i will present one just to give you an introduction into what can be a very complicated and dense study.
"In Javanese society, the Naga (serpent) is a potent, syncretic symbol representing a combination of ancient animism, Hindu-Buddhist cosmology, and, later, Javanese royal identity. As a "crowned giant magical serpent" (sometimes winged), the Naga acts as a guardian of treasures, a symbol of fertility and water, and a stabilizer of the world."
Like many Naga Sasra blades, yours is decorated with gold embellishments, something known as "kinatah". These embellishments can sometimes be vegetal and at times zoomorphic, presenting animals such as deer, elephants water buffalo and mythical creatures. Traditionally it can be used to denote status or rank or added to a keris as a reward for service to the keraton and the Sultan.

[JayHasAKeris]

Thank you for your insight as well
I'm a bit surprised you guys seem to think it's a genuine antique artifact, I wouldn't have suspected that. I thought it may have somehow found its way to Europe after WW2... I always thought it might have been made during WW2, but then AI told me some weird things about this keris, so I figured I would ask real experts instead. Thank you guys for helping me learn more
There seem to be dozens of varieties in possible keris patterns (pamor I think? I am new to the lingo as well, I will try to learn!)... can your practiced eyes tell anything about that from the pictures?
Also... sorry for my late replies, as a newbie they have to be cleared yet (perfectly understandable, just explaining why my replies take ages to appear )

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jay. Welcome to the forum. It is a shame that the gonjo is missing from this keris, but it is still a nice and authentic naga keris. Just to be clear, what i believe Alan was getting at when he stated that he could not give a good opinion of age based solely on the photographs is that this is a form that, when made correctly, has maintained a very exacting form since it's introduction into the keris world sometime +/- 1700. I would not think youyr particular example to be as old as 1700s, but it would probably be safe to say it is at least antique (100+ yrs. old).
To understand this keris better you may want to acquaint yourself with the symbolism and significance of the naga/nogo within Javanese society of the period. Naga is often translated as "dragon", but it is more serpent-like than a dragon. Though i generally hate AI overviews, i will present one just to give you an introduction into what can be a very complicated and dense study.
"In Javanese society, the Naga (serpent) is a potent, syncretic symbol representing a combination of ancient animism, Hindu-Buddhist cosmology, and, later, Javanese royal identity. As a "crowned giant magical serpent" (sometimes winged), the Naga acts as a guardian of treasures, a symbol of fertility and water, and a stabilizer of the world."
Like many Naga Sasra blades, yours is decorated with gold embellishments, something known as "kinatah". These embellishments can sometimes be vegetal and at times zoomorphic, presenting animals such as deer, elephants water buffalo and mythical creatures. Traditionally it can be used to denote status or rank or added to a keris as a reward for service to the keraton and the Sultan.

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a good summary David, but I will add one little thing to just what a Naga is, the symbolism is a way of visualizing the essence of the Naga, in reality, the Naga is a force of nature that is beyond human comprehension, by providing a way to visualise the Naga, humans can get some sort of an idea of the power & nature of the Naga.

In Jawa, we believe that before leaving home on any particular day, it is best to check in which way the Naga is moving on that day, the calculation of which direction the Naga is moving is based on the Javanese system of calendars.

If we want go somewhere, or undertake an important task, it is best that we arrange our day in accordance with the direction in which the Naga is moving on that particular day, for example, it is not at all a real good idea to arrange our objectives in a direction that agrees with the direction that the Naga is facing or with his belly, rather it is a much better idea to arrange our objectives in accordance with the direction of the Naga's tail, or even his back.

As I said:- a force of nature, & in all things it is best to work with nature, rather than against nature.

Perhaps something that some of us might do well to remember at the present time.

[JayHasAKeris]

Hello again

I have learned a lot about this keris from you guys already, thank you very much I have also learned a whole lot about keris in general since I have joined this forum, I tried to look up things about keris online quite a bit since. A month ago I literally had no idea at all about them... ignorant to the "wavy dagger" level, as I said. I realise now that I should apologise to my keris for my ignorance. Their spiritual significance and status in Indonesian society as well as the naga is fascinating. I had literally never heard of all that before.

I have learned now that my particular keris might actually have the potential to be a very rare and valuable object. When I say valuable I explicitly want to state that I mean this in a historical sense, I do not want to nor intend to sell my keris nor do I want to discuss the monetary value of it. It will not be sold. I merely stated the price I bought it for to underline my incredible luck in getting this. I say "might actually have the potential", I don't want to jump to conclusions, but if I understood things correctly, if this turns out to be genuinely old, it might be interesting, or am I wrong there? The person who sold it must have had no idea what it was at all. Was just one of many "wavy daggers" at his stand, claiming to all be Kris from Indonesia, and of course he claimed they were all forged from meteorite steel Didn't believe that even back then, but I bought one anyways... "pretty wavy daggers", just had never seen them before. I have no idea why I picked this one in particular. I think I particularily thought it was especially nicely wavy for some reason. I am a collector of a different kind from you, I don't usually collect historical blades. If that keris turns out to be authentic, it is my only antique piece. Other than that, I only have contemporary blades that I like because of their pretty damascus steel patterns (particularly Manfred Sachse... so sorry I misspelled his name in my initial post ). I have always thought "one day, I'll find out more about this thing" for so many years... and over the holidays I remembered I had this thing and thought I'd finally give it a try with AI. Might sound odd to you experts, but I thought it was some rusty old thing. But "nice and wavy and you can tell the damascus pattern is there" (what I now know is the pamor). I never even noticed the naga on it, believe it or not, I just never looked at it all that much. That came to my attention first when I took closeup pictures to post somewhere eventually for my research journey. The bit I thought for decades was molten suddenly turned out to be, when looked at properly, a finely crafted "dragon head with a hat on"... and then I saw the body snaking along the blade... weird moment! With AI so readily available I figured I could go and give it a try to help me identify what it was, I only knew it was called a "Kris" in german and went from there. However, I quickly found out that AI is not an expert on keris, I got very widely varying answers, but it helped me find a forum of experts, so I found you

Since my last post I have read a lot on the subject, but it is so much to comprehend In my reading, I have also discovered that you guys aren't just hobby experts or fellow hobby collectors in this forum as I initially thought. You guys are some top level experts, wow... thank you all for your input and having my ignorant self amongst you If I understood things correctly Mr. Maisey even is an incredibly knowledgable Empu, I also only realise my ignorance on not knowing just *how* incredibly experienced you guys are on the subject. Mr. Maisey, thank you very much for your time and posting your expertise!

I have realised by now that pictures will not be sufficient to properly judge this keris. AI is suggesting I present it to an auction house, but as I said I don't want to sell it. Other than that it is suggesting I contact the ethnological museum in Berlin... I would be grateful for someone more knowledgable than me or AI on the subject to tell me if this is something that a museum would be interested to at least look at to study? Or am I misjudging this completely? Or do you guys have any better suggestions who I can contact on the subject in germany? As I said I don't want to sell it, I just am looking for more professional help to properly judge and analyse it - which apparently has to be done in person if I understood this correctly. As incredibly interesting as the study of keris is, it seems to be a rather rare hobby in germany

Any and all comments are welcome, thank you very much I have no idea what the naga seems to be "holding" and I can't manage to make a guess on what the pamor pattern is called... I would be grateful if any of you could help me out further