Two Nice Viking Items

Matchlock · 18th February 2012, 04:29 PM

A sword pommel and a stirrup mount.

Best,
m

Rick · 18th February 2012, 05:25 PM

What an enduring motif ....

eftihis · 20th February 2012, 07:58 AM

Well, i doubt that this specific dragon-head is a viking era item.
It is so much identical with 18th-19th century Ottoman dragons, that i think is a mislabelled item.
Do we have another example of an accurately dated viking age dragon for comparison?

Matchlock · 20th February 2012, 12:59 PM

Interesting input, Eftihis, thank you.

So let's start comparing.

Here is a carved dragon and a dragon ornament, both from the Oseberg ship, plus a less finely preserved sample from another Viking ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseberg_ship

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CFgQrQMwBg

Best,
Michael

eftihis · 20th February 2012, 05:34 PM

Hi Michael,
Allthough the dragon is a universaly recognised symbol, its specific stylistic representation changed acccording to time and culture.
I think the first Turks, being a Mongol-like tribe, were heavily influenced by China, and their first dragons (like the famous example on a sultans yataghan blade, of a fight between a dragon and a bird) looked like the Chinese ones. At the same time, there is some similarity between the flat carved Viking dragon motifs on the ship you showed us, with the Seltzuk door handle of the 13th century, but thhis maybe due to the limitations of a "flat" object.
During renessance, in Europe and especially in Italy we often see a dragon looking monster, which is usually described as a sea-monster, sea-dragon, or sometimes as a dolphin. I think this is the model for the latter Ottoman dragon that we see in scabbard finials.
The last photo is a group of late 18th and 19th century bichaq daggers made during the Ottoman times in Crete. I think the style and anatomical characteristics are identical with the dragon we are discussing.

Matchlock · 20th February 2012, 05:59 PM

Hi Eftihis,

Thank you so much for that comprehensive outline of the art history of the dragon motif. From my background of knowlede I can confirm both the monsters' or dragons' ancient European ancestors and their Renaissance revival.

Best,
Michael

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 04:34 PM

Salaams ~ Therefor are the artefacts at # 1 fakes?... Is the dragon fake and is the stirrup item real? ... I am uncertain of your conclusion gentlemen.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Matchlock · 22nd February 2012, 05:25 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,

Viking is not my field of expertise. I found these on a dealer's page and, as they were labeled sold, posted them for discussion without a comment.

Best,
Michael

18th February 2012, 04:29 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two Nice Viking Items A sword pommel and a stirrup mount. Best, m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 18th February 2012 at 04:46 PM.

18th February 2012, 05:25 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	What an enduring motif .... Attached Images

20th February 2012, 12:59 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Interesting input, Eftihis, thank you. So let's start comparing. Here is a carved dragon and a dragon ornament, both from the Oseberg ship, plus a less finely preserved sample from another Viking ship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseberg_ship http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CFgQrQMwBg Best, Michael Attached Images

20th February 2012, 05:34 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Hi Michael, Allthough the dragon is a universaly recognised symbol, its specific stylistic representation changed acccording to time and culture. I think the first Turks, being a Mongol-like tribe, were heavily influenced by China, and their first dragons (like the famous example on a sultans yataghan blade, of a fight between a dragon and a bird) looked like the Chinese ones. At the same time, there is some similarity between the flat carved Viking dragon motifs on the ship you showed us, with the Seltzuk door handle of the 13th century, but thhis maybe due to the limitations of a "flat" object. During renessance, in Europe and especially in Italy we often see a dragon looking monster, which is usually described as a sea-monster, sea-dragon, or sometimes as a dolphin. I think this is the model for the latter Ottoman dragon that we see in scabbard finials. The last photo is a group of late 18th and 19th century bichaq daggers made during the Ottoman times in Crete. I think the style and anatomical characteristics are identical with the dragon we are discussing. Attached Images

20th February 2012, 07:58 AM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Well, i doubt that this specific dragon-head is a viking era item. It is so much identical with 18th-19th century Ottoman dragons, that i think is a mislabelled item. Do we have another example of an accurately dated viking age dragon for comparison?

20th February 2012, 05:59 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Eftihis, Thank you so much for that comprehensive outline of the art history of the dragon motif. From my background of knowlede I can confirm both the monsters' or dragons' ancient European ancestors and their Renaissance revival. Best, Michael

22nd February 2012, 04:34 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams ~ Therefor are the artefacts at # 1 fakes?... Is the dragon fake and is the stirrup item real? ... I am uncertain of your conclusion gentlemen. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

22nd February 2012, 05:25 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ibrahiim, Viking is not my field of expertise. I found these on a dealer's page and, as they were labeled sold, posted them for discussion without a comment. Best, Michael