Ivory Kakatua Question...

Spunjer · 11th July 2006, 03:56 PM

recent acquisition... my question is; is there a way to identify what type of ivory this is? it has a nice golden yellow tint to it, but it has this distinct graining all over. comments?

Rick · 11th July 2006, 04:13 PM

Hi Ron , that looks like a Danganan, circa 1850's, size pommel ; yes ?

I'll bet it's elephant ; whether African or Asian I have no idea .
The reason I think so is due to the size of the pommel ; if it were marine ivory you would probably see a core of some kind .

Is there any way to tell the difference between African and Asian elephant ivory after it has been carved ; I know the Asian tusks are smaller , but are there any material differences ?

Rather · 11th July 2006, 04:15 PM

It will be almost impossible to determinate the kind of ivory by colour, which depends on age and exposition to light etc. It can be done by microscope or spectroscopy, also different hardness of the material could be an indicator of the source. Specialists are needed to do such a research. Sorry, not much of a help for you...

VANDOO · 11th July 2006, 05:59 PM

THERE APPEARS TO BE THE CROSS HATCH PATTERN IN YOUR PICTURE #4 WHICH WOULD INDICATE IT IS ELEPHANT IVORY CAN'T TELL FOR SURE FROM A PICTURE. A EXPERT CAN TELL IF IT IS ASIAN OR AFRICAN BUT THE AGE CRACKS AND PATINA OFTEN MAKE IT MORE DIFICULT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF POSTS IN THE OLD ARCHIVES ON HOW TO IDENTIFY DIFFERENT IVORYS AND SOME BOOK REFRENCES AS WELL. NICE KRIS

Michael Blalock · 11th July 2006, 06:04 PM

Elephant ivory has a grain with Schreger lines. See the attached link.
www.lab.fws.gov/Ivory/elephant.html
http://www.lab.fws.gov/Ivory/prelim.html

kino · 12th July 2006, 12:37 AM

C'mon and post a photo of the whole thing.

Spunjer · 12th July 2006, 06:37 AM

thanks for the link, michael.
reason i brought this up is because i was thinking perhaps the ivory was from a seacow, after reading a somewhat recent thread, due to its hue. but i guess the consensus is it's elephant. nothing wrong with that, now i know. kinda wonder tho; when the artisan carved this pommel, did he had it in his mind that it's gonna turn golden yellow? was this or the other prematurely aged then to get this hue? either way, me think it's pretty....

Spunjer · 12th July 2006, 06:41 AM

per kino's request...

Andrew · 12th July 2006, 06:59 AM

Wow. That's gorgeous.

Rick · 12th July 2006, 03:10 PM

A 21 ; that's major mojo there Spunger !
Love the center panel !

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 03:15 PM

Hey, beautiful blade and ivory kakatua! The 'beak' of the pommel matches the tall daun spike on one side of the sheath.

Is this kris Mindanao or Sulu, or something else? The sheath almost looks like a Malay keris sheath.

Spunjer · 12th July 2006, 04:40 PM

i just love the way everything harmonize: the gray steel, black cord grip, golden yellow pommel and golden brown tagub. also, i like the way the tagub crosspiece matches the kris's katik, all the way the the little lip. back to the grip; something about the grip when it's caked like that. would be interesting what you may find if one does a CSI on it.
yeah, the center panel was a pleasant surprise! the lamination goes all the way to the katik, and if you notice the blades are laminated in a different manner, creating a pretty neat contrast. i would say it's a Sulu Kris...

kino · 13th July 2006, 12:47 AM

Spunger, very nice sword, brah! I really like the laminations lines.
Thanks for sharing.

Battara · 13th July 2006, 02:01 AM

I agree Spunger, Sulu kris and elephant ivory for the same reasons Vandoo mentioned. Yellow is not unusual at all (look at my avatar) and color is dependant on amount of exposure to sulpher content in the air, age, and light. Nice puppy - you are making a killing recently on PI/Moro stuff.

Spunjer · 13th July 2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Nice puppy - you are making a killing recently on PI/Moro stuff.

just trying to keep up with the joneses, lol. ebay, which was once a pretty reasonable place to go hunting, has now been competing price wise with the 'tribal art' sector. well, almost

. so i just have to find a different venue...

Battara · 15th July 2006, 08:58 PM

I know what you mean....prices have been sky rocketing I think in part due to these pieces sliding into the tribal art market.

11th July 2006, 03:56 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Ivory Kakatua Question... recent acquisition... my question is; is there a way to identify what type of ivory this is? it has a nice golden yellow tint to it, but it has this distinct graining all over. comments? Attached Images

11th July 2006, 06:04 PM	#5
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Elephant ivory has a grain with Schreger lines. See the attached link. www.lab.fws.gov/Ivory/elephant.html http://www.lab.fws.gov/Ivory/prelim.html Last edited by Michael Blalock; 11th July 2006 at 06:45 PM.

12th July 2006, 06:41 AM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	per kino's request... Attached Images

11th July 2006, 04:13 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Hi Ron , that looks like a Danganan, circa 1850's, size pommel ; yes ? I'll bet it's elephant ; whether African or Asian I have no idea . The reason I think so is due to the size of the pommel ; if it were marine ivory you would probably see a core of some kind . Is there any way to tell the difference between African and Asian elephant ivory after it has been carved ; I know the Asian tusks are smaller , but are there any material differences ?

11th July 2006, 04:15 PM	#3
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	It will be almost impossible to determinate the kind of ivory by colour, which depends on age and exposition to light etc. It can be done by microscope or spectroscopy, also different hardness of the material could be an indicator of the source. Specialists are needed to do such a research. Sorry, not much of a help for you...

11th July 2006, 05:59 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE APPEARS TO BE THE CROSS HATCH PATTERN IN YOUR PICTURE #4 WHICH WOULD INDICATE IT IS ELEPHANT IVORY CAN'T TELL FOR SURE FROM A PICTURE. A EXPERT CAN TELL IF IT IS ASIAN OR AFRICAN BUT THE AGE CRACKS AND PATINA OFTEN MAKE IT MORE DIFICULT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF POSTS IN THE OLD ARCHIVES ON HOW TO IDENTIFY DIFFERENT IVORYS AND SOME BOOK REFRENCES AS WELL. NICE KRIS

12th July 2006, 12:37 AM	#6
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,020	C'mon and post a photo of the whole thing.

12th July 2006, 06:37 AM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the link, michael. reason i brought this up is because i was thinking perhaps the ivory was from a seacow, after reading a somewhat recent thread, due to its hue. but i guess the consensus is it's elephant. nothing wrong with that, now i know. kinda wonder tho; when the artisan carved this pommel, did he had it in his mind that it's gonna turn golden yellow? was this or the other prematurely aged then to get this hue? either way, me think it's pretty....

12th July 2006, 06:59 AM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Wow. That's gorgeous.

12th July 2006, 03:10 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	A 21 ; that's major mojo there Spunger ! Love the center panel !

12th July 2006, 03:15 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey, beautiful blade and ivory kakatua! The 'beak' of the pommel matches the tall daun spike on one side of the sheath. Is this kris Mindanao or Sulu, or something else? The sheath almost looks like a Malay keris sheath.

12th July 2006, 04:40 PM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i just love the way everything harmonize: the gray steel, black cord grip, golden yellow pommel and golden brown tagub. also, i like the way the tagub crosspiece matches the kris's katik, all the way the the little lip. back to the grip; something about the grip when it's caked like that. would be interesting what you may find if one does a CSI on it. yeah, the center panel was a pleasant surprise! the lamination goes all the way to the katik, and if you notice the blades are laminated in a different manner, creating a pretty neat contrast. i would say it's a Sulu Kris...

13th July 2006, 12:47 AM	#13
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,020	Spunger, very nice sword, brah! I really like the laminations lines. Thanks for sharing.

13th July 2006, 02:01 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I agree Spunger, Sulu kris and elephant ivory for the same reasons Vandoo mentioned. Yellow is not unusual at all (look at my avatar) and color is dependant on amount of exposure to sulpher content in the air, age, and light. Nice puppy - you are making a killing recently on PI/Moro stuff.

15th July 2006, 08:58 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I know what you mean....prices have been sky rocketing I think in part due to these pieces sliding into the tribal art market.