Show us your Talismanic markings on keris blades

Green · 29th December 2016, 04:05 AM

I'm quite fascinated by markings that one can sometime find on some keris blades- Particularly on antique blades. These days keris makers make all sorts of marks on blades by copying old marks simply for decorative purposes without any proper ceremonies or mantras attended to the making of these talismanic markings (ketandaan) as done in the old days.

Would love if dear members can show us some examples of your blade talismanic markings and if possible tell us their probable meaning or purpose.

Here is an example from me. A simple but old keris anak alang most probably from Kelantan Malaysia or Patani(?).

There are 2 markings on one side of the blade. A gat ? (Guard) which runs across the blade at the base , and a furrow termed as 'anak sungai' (stream/rivulet) running along the middle of the blade with a break in the centre of the blade which then continues towards the top part.

I don't know the meaning of this markings but has been told that the purpose is to prevent the enemy from finding you . But on the other hand this blade is not good for business purposes (because the customers won't find you!).

don't know what the rivulet is suppose to mean.

Jean · 29th December 2016, 10:20 AM

Hello Green,
From the pics I am wondering whether these markings are purposely made or just welding flaws?
Regards

Jean · 29th December 2016, 10:26 AM

Hello Green,
I attach pics of a Javanese blade with engravings partly inlaid with gold, the top motif is called pilulut.
Regards

David · 29th December 2016, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

From the pics I am wondering whether these markings are purposely made or just welding flaws?

That was my impression as well. The groove down that center (what you call "anak sungai") may well be intentional, but that other gash in the blade surface looks more like a forging flaw to me.

Green · 29th December 2016, 05:05 PM

from what i understood and been told the mark was intentional... looks a bit awkward it is true...

Jean;

Do you know what is the meaning and purpose of those golden marks on your keris?

David · 29th December 2016, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

from what i understood and been told the mark was intentional... looks a bit awkward it is true...

Well, people do tend to tell us a lot of things in regards to keris that are not necessary true...though in the end belief seems to trump truth a lot of the time in these situations.

Green · 30th December 2016, 04:10 AM

David;

Belief attending to meaning of marks and other belief regarding the history and background of the keris is one thing and can be exteremely subjective.

but the marks on keris is a hard objective fact. If we can see it on the keris , it is certainly purposely made - for whatever reason. Marks are usually obvious (not always) and can not be mistaken from incidental defects to the blade.

Green · 30th December 2016, 05:07 AM

Here is another example of talismanic marking on my old pandai saras blade, which is not obvious at a cursory glance.

But if you put the blade at a certain angle in good light, you can see cross hatches on one side and parallel small hatches on the other side.

These are obviously made for whatever purposes that I am not sure of.

David · 30th December 2016, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Here is another example of talismanic marking on my old pandai saras blade, which is not obvious at a cursory glance.

But if you put the blade at a certain angle in good light, you can see cross hatches on one side and parallel small hatches on the other side.

These are obviously made for whatever purposes that I am not sure of.

I'm sorry Green, but that just looks like tool markings to me. I'm not convinced at all that these markings have a talismanic intention.

Green · 30th December 2016, 09:27 AM

i did think the same when i first saw it, but a couple of people who know about patani keris that I showed this to, told me it's a mark done purposely.

they could be wrong...or right...

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2016, 09:39 AM

They're made because somebody forgot to use alloy jaw covers on his vice. Even folded newspaper would have done.

Talismanic value is to remind one to take care playing with things they do not understand very well.

Sajen · 30th December 2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

They're made because somebody forgot to use alloy jaw covers on his vice. Even folded newspaper would have done.

Hello Green,

agree complete with Alan, this marks a more as typical for a vice.

Regards,
Detlef

Green · 30th December 2016, 10:04 AM

Ah... yes, Alan's explanation makes perfect sense for this blade! Many thanks. I'm learning new things everyday!

what about the first blade I showed...would that considered some form of artifact and not a purposely made marking?

Jean · 30th December 2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Jean;

Do you know what is the meaning and purpose of those golden marks on your keris?

Hello Green,
The golden marks were recently made or refurbished I think but the engravings look original.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2016, 12:04 PM

I would need to examine the first blade under magnification to know what I was looking at.

Green · 30th December 2016, 12:47 PM

Mr Maisey.

i will try to get better pics when I get back home in a few days time...

Jean · 30th December 2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Green,

agree complete with Alan, this marks a more as typical for a vice.

Regards,
Detlef

If these diamond-shaped marks were imprinted by vice jaws they should be of equal size (unless the vice is very rustic) which does not seem to be the case from the pics: the marks look of larger size up the blade but this may be a perspective effect?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2016, 09:05 PM

Green, pics will not be of any use to me, I need the thing in my hand, and a 3X loupe in my eye.

Jean, to you these marks may be something to be investigated, analysed, given careful thought, and then a decision made. To me they are as clear as reading a sentence that I have already read many, many times. I've even been guilty of writing that sentence once, when I was about 13 or 14 years old. These marks were made by the blade being clamped into a holding device. That device is usually a bench vice, but some hand tools do leave a similar imprint.

Gustav · 30th December 2016, 10:02 PM

Yes, we see them quite often on Malayan Keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=vice+marks

The magic of modernisation.

Green · 31st December 2016, 04:34 AM

Gustav,

Many thanks for the link! getting to understand it a bit better ( i think)...

Jean · 31st December 2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Yes, we see them quite often on Malayan Keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=vice+marks

The magic of modernisation.

Thank you Gustav, it was an interesting discussion!

Jean · 3rd March 2017, 08:51 PM

I own this old Batak chopping knife, the strong blade has one cutting edge and a convex section, and it shows irregular crisscross lines on a significant part of the surface. By close examination it seems that the entire surface was initially crisscrossed but it was polished towards the edge probably for maintaining the sharp cutting edge.
These lines were clearly incised for any reason and not imprinted by a vice or other clamping tool.
Regards

drdavid · 3rd March 2017, 09:17 PM

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

Rick · 3rd March 2017, 09:56 PM

It looks like it's made from an old wood rasp to me.

One flat side; one convex side.
Seems like the cross section of a rasp flattened out.

David · 4th March 2017, 01:48 AM

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent.

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2017, 01:54 AM

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

Jean · 4th March 2017, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

Hi Drdavid,
The blade is 17.2 cm long by 4.3 cm wide and 4.5 mm maximum thickness (6.8 x 1.7 x 0.18 inch). This appears too wide for a rasp or file (the piece would have been originally wider) and furthermore the crisscross lines near the tang are not parallel to those near the tip (more slanted) which would not be the case if the piece had been made from a rasp or file. There are also traces of crisscross lines on the flat (non-cutting) edge of the blade.
Regards

Jean · 4th March 2017, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent.

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

Jean · 4th March 2017, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,
Some of the marks on you blade are clearly located in a cavity, so how could they have been imprinted by a vice?

You are correct that it is difficult to assess and interpret these marks from a picture.
Regards

Sajen · 4th March 2017, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

Hello Jean,

disagree with you, sorry. I also own some old blades made from files or rasps, it's a typical sign for this. Files/rasps has been high regarded as material for good blades. Good iron material was not found at every corner in old times!

Regards,
Detlef

29th December 2016, 04:05 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Show us your Talismanic markings on keris blades I'm quite fascinated by markings that one can sometime find on some keris blades- Particularly on antique blades. These days keris makers make all sorts of marks on blades by copying old marks simply for decorative purposes without any proper ceremonies or mantras attended to the making of these talismanic markings (ketandaan) as done in the old days. Would love if dear members can show us some examples of your blade talismanic markings and if possible tell us their probable meaning or purpose. Here is an example from me. A simple but old keris anak alang most probably from Kelantan Malaysia or Patani(?). There are 2 markings on one side of the blade. A gat ? (Guard) which runs across the blade at the base , and a furrow termed as 'anak sungai' (stream/rivulet) running along the middle of the blade with a break in the centre of the blade which then continues towards the top part. I don't know the meaning of this markings but has been told that the purpose is to prevent the enemy from finding you . But on the other hand this blade is not good for business purposes (because the customers won't find you!). don't know what the rivulet is suppose to mean. Attached Images

29th December 2016, 10:26 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Green, I attach pics of a Javanese blade with engravings partly inlaid with gold, the top motif is called pilulut. Regards Attached Images

30th December 2016, 05:07 AM	#8
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Here is another example of talismanic marking on my old pandai saras blade, which is not obvious at a cursory glance. But if you put the blade at a certain angle in good light, you can see cross hatches on one side and parallel small hatches on the other side. These are obviously made for whatever purposes that I am not sure of. Attached Images

3rd March 2017, 08:51 PM	#22
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Crisscross lines on a Batak knife I own this old Batak chopping knife, the strong blade has one cutting edge and a convex section, and it shows irregular crisscross lines on a significant part of the surface. By close examination it seems that the entire surface was initially crisscrossed but it was polished towards the edge probably for maintaining the sharp cutting edge. These lines were clearly incised for any reason and not imprinted by a vice or other clamping tool. Regards Attached Images

4th March 2017, 01:54 AM	#26
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I can see the confusion I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated. Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image. Gavin Attached Images

29th December 2016, 10:20 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Green, From the pics I am wondering whether these markings are purposely made or just welding flaws? Regards

29th December 2016, 05:05 PM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	from what i understood and been told the mark was intentional... looks a bit awkward it is true... Jean; Do you know what is the meaning and purpose of those golden marks on your keris?

30th December 2016, 04:10 AM	#7
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	David; Belief attending to meaning of marks and other belief regarding the history and background of the keris is one thing and can be exteremely subjective. but the marks on keris is a hard objective fact. If we can see it on the keris , it is certainly purposely made - for whatever reason. Marks are usually obvious (not always) and can not be mistaken from incidental defects to the blade.

30th December 2016, 09:27 AM	#10
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	i did think the same when i first saw it, but a couple of people who know about patani keris that I showed this to, told me it's a mark done purposely. they could be wrong...or right...

30th December 2016, 09:39 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	They're made because somebody forgot to use alloy jaw covers on his vice. Even folded newspaper would have done. Talismanic value is to remind one to take care playing with things they do not understand very well.

30th December 2016, 10:04 AM	#13
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Ah... yes, Alan's explanation makes perfect sense for this blade! Many thanks. I'm learning new things everyday! what about the first blade I showed...would that considered some form of artifact and not a purposely made marking?

30th December 2016, 12:04 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I would need to examine the first blade under magnification to know what I was looking at.

30th December 2016, 12:47 PM	#16
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Mr Maisey. i will try to get better pics when I get back home in a few days time...

30th December 2016, 09:05 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Green, pics will not be of any use to me, I need the thing in my hand, and a 3X loupe in my eye. Jean, to you these marks may be something to be investigated, analysed, given careful thought, and then a decision made. To me they are as clear as reading a sentence that I have already read many, many times. I've even been guilty of writing that sentence once, when I was about 13 or 14 years old. These marks were made by the blade being clamped into a holding device. That device is usually a bench vice, but some hand tools do leave a similar imprint.

30th December 2016, 10:02 PM	#19
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Yes, we see them quite often on Malayan Keris. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=vice+marks The magic of modernisation.

31st December 2016, 04:34 AM	#20
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Gustav, Many thanks for the link! getting to understand it a bit better ( i think)...

3rd March 2017, 09:17 PM	#23
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade Drd

3rd March 2017, 09:56 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	It looks like it's made from an old wood rasp to me. One flat side; one convex side. Seems like the cross section of a rasp flattened out.

4th March 2017, 01:48 AM	#25
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent.