Heavy Nubian / Nigerian Short sword...age? comments?

katana · 8th October 2006, 09:01 PM

Just won this ...a Nigerian short sword , 12" (30cms) blade which is 3/16" (4.5mm) thick, double edged . The hilt is bronze, (lost wax cast around the blade) This sword is quite heavy 3lbs 5 ozs (1.5 kgs) No scabbard

.
The 'Gladius' similarities are obvious....a nice sword for close quarter fighting. I tried to research this type of sword with little sucess....however, I did find a 'similar' one on Therion Arms which had the addition of a cross guard.

http://therionarms.com/antiques/ttoy409.html

Not certain as to how old this piece is.....however the oxidation of the bronze hilt is consistant with some age. It has evidence of all three stages of oxidation....overall discolouration..dark brown copper oxide film. The formation of copper sulphate which creates thin, light green patches on the more exposed areas. Finally dark scabs and pitting.

Please if anyone has any information or comments they are most welcome/

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2006, 09:10 PM

I have never seen any of these ever!!!. Some better pics would help. Can we be sure of the opinion you show. Personally i am really not at all sure that this is African

.

katana · 8th October 2006, 10:18 PM

Hi Tim,
I have not yet received the sword....so better pics will have to come later. The seller trades alot of African items from West Africa and this is where the sword was sourced. Not that it proves IT IS African....personally my 'gut instinct' says African...the diagonal lines seem typical, the cylindrical 'guardless' hilt etc. The example on Therion is very similar in dimension, weight, the cylindrical hilt and blade design. The blade (on Therion)is 1 3/8" (3.4 cms) longer and is 1/2" (1.2 cm) wider, although mine weighs approx. 5 1/2 ozs more. (approx 150g).
The 'Gladius' was hugely successful for the Roman Army, seeing that the coastal areas of North Africa were Roman controlled for many years...I do not think it unreasonable that the design may have been adopted and spread via trading routes. In fact, I am surprised that 'gladius' styled swords seem very atypical,for Africa, especially in certain environments where swinging a larger sword would be awkward.
However, I really like the simplicity and 'meatyness' of this sword

and if they are rare......ish for Africa and this turns out to be from there.....then

Ian · 8th October 2006, 11:00 PM

Katana:

I think your sword is mostly likely from Benin (formerly Dahomey). The heavy bronze/brass hilt with chevron designs is typical of Benin work. There is a previous thread that considerd other Benin swords (hwe) here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=300

Ian.

katana · 8th October 2006, 11:18 PM

Thanks Ian,
now I can add a few more 'key words' in google and see what it turns up

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2006, 09:13 AM

I do beg your pardon. I have always associated "hwi" "ada" and "udamalore" as some of the finest and high status work of the city states of West Africa. Much like old fashioned city mayor regalia, its quality varies depending on it wealth and affiliation to the royal household. It does not look like a fighting weapon to me, what do you think? I felt unsure because of the apparent ageing to the brass with not a lot of sign of frequent fondling

I love saying that.

Lew · 9th October 2006, 12:33 PM

I have seen these swords before with claims they are from Nigeria? Hopefully this is not a Chinese copy of an African sword

Just think of it having the market flooded with chinese made repros of this type of stuff

Lew

katana · 9th October 2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Hopefully this is not a Chinese copy of an African sword

Just think of it having the market flooded with chinese made repros of this type of stuff

Lew

I think that unlikely.....why produce a 'copy' of an unfamiliar, plain sword from a continent thats not world famous for it's sword production ? Hardly good business sense.....even for the 'fake-makers'.

With the weight, thickness of the blade and its lack of adornment I believe this to be a functional weapon. Dahomey (Benin), Cameroon or neighbouring Nigeria seem likely. Considering the French involvement with Dahomey its not unreasonable to suggest that this sword could be a native copy of a 'cabbage cutter', the nickname for the short French issue side arm.
The area historically had many craftsmen that used 'lost wax' casting of bronze and brass ......again suggesting the same area. And as Ian has pointed out...the chevron 'motif' suggests Dahomey.

Lew .. when I receive the sword and if I find a stamp ' frabrique' en Chine'
I'll let you know

katana · 11th October 2006, 10:37 PM

Added this picture, looking down on the handle.........seems to have a well formed blade.....definately looks functional to me......but then I'm biased

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2006, 07:31 PM

I am keen to see some more pictures. One thing that I find a little disconcerting is that the carving in the wax and cast handle does not seem to have any wear so this may be fairly modern. West Africa is well known for its brass casting. I do hope you can allay my fears but I am still a little unsure. Did the seller suggest Nubia/Nigeria? it is a very long way between the two.

katana · 12th October 2006, 08:55 PM

Hi Tim, the seller stated Nubian in the title, which sort of made sense....its close proximity to Egypt, the Romans etc. I began to think 'Gladius' inspired weapon. But the description mentions Nigeria as the country this sword was sourced.
I do agree that 'normal' wear of the hilt is not very evident. I checked various metallury sites about the oxidation patterns of bronze (the hilt is stated as bronze) and the patination shows age. Enlarging the pictures of the hilt, I noticed that the edges of the 'grooves' in the hilt seem to show some 'erosion' which also seems to indicate 'age'.
I wont receive the sword until the end of next week, at the earliest. But am quite intrigued as to its possible history, (or not) as the case may be. Once I get it 'in hand' I think some of the questions will be answered.....but I have searched and searched on the web, checked images from West African tribal photos and have been unable to find any matches. Other than the Therion Arms ...I have found two separate examples ....which were wood hilted (plain but cylindrical) with a similar blade (slightly longer and the 'point' had slightly arched sides) that were both attributed to the Cameroon.....unfortunately neither stated a tribe.

katana · 16th October 2006, 11:39 PM

The seller has furnished me with additional information...

Apparently it was obtained in Nigeria....some years ago...by a Merchant Marine. He was told that the sword was 'NUPE' and he (the seller) insists it is 'battleworthy'. The Nupe had constant conflict with neighbouring tribes and according to my research were skilled 'bronze casters'. Seeing as Dahomey was one such neighbour....Rick's suggestion of Dahomey as the sword's origin seems 'not so wide of the mark'......begining to seem a 'good call' Rick

Tim Simmons · 17th October 2006, 06:55 AM

I do hope so. I apologise for my hesitance on this piece. I just felt that amongst many books on the metal casting and art in that part of West Africa I have never seen anything near such a distinctive "gladius" weapon/symbol. One is learning all the time. Would still like to see some more pics.

katana · 10th November 2006, 10:31 PM

Sword finally arrived today, very heavy and solid......no way a tourist piece...blade is still quite sharp ...even though heavily rusted.....and has a nice 'ring' to it when struck. Gave the blade a careful 'scrape' and wire 'wooled' it ...some areas of deep pitting . Also has fine, diagonal lines which are slightly wavy. I thought at first that it could be a re-worked large file or rasp. But several things don't add up....the blade is a flattened diamond shape (in cross section) and there is evidence of 'forging' marks'. A re-worked 'file' blade often has the 'criss cross' surface noticeable on the thicker portions of the blade ....where it tapers to the 'edge' these tend to disappear either because they are ground/filed down (thus thinning the blade towards the edge) or, as it is forged the 'file teeth' are beaten into the 'file's core'. These 'wavy, diagonal lines traverse from one edge to the other

The hilt is very heavy, when handling the sword I noticed that by grasping the hilt near the top (leaves about 4cms of pommel protruding) gives the swinging action more power.....with the added advantage that the pommel could be used to strike an opponent in 'close quarter' combat.

Will post pics later.....I think I will need natural light to show up the detail.

Also, I re-posted some pics from this post that Ian (thanks)refered to
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=stars
There are many similarities to the hilt...

katana · 11th November 2006, 08:03 PM

Hi Gentlemen.....a few photos....any ideas or comments gratefully received...especially to the diagonal, slightly wavy lines

katana · 11th November 2006, 09:35 PM

It would help if I uploaded them.......

Tim Simmons · 11th November 2006, 09:49 PM

This is completely new to me. It certainly looks like it was made to do some harm. I do not think it has been forged from an old file, being there are no squashed scale like marks only the heavy use of a file.

katana · 12th November 2006, 11:33 AM

Hi Tim,
the blade 'rings' when tapped...suggesting good tempered steel. As mentioned before, the blade is quite sharp...even though there is no evidence of any re-sharpening. The rust I removed from the blade was very dark in colour, almost black, and was not 'loose'....hence the 'scraping'. It suggests reasonable age....early 20c...as a conservative estimate, but that is only my opinion. The blade seems very well made.....perhaps not locally made but, an adapted European blade

The hilt and overall finish is very good. It is a shame that there is no scabbard....assuming that it had one originally. If it did, It must have been weighted at the bottom to counteract the weight of the hilt....who knows??
There was another similarly constructed hilted short sword sold on eBay recently...the blade was almost square (in cross section)....a stabbing weapon. The seller stated that it had come from Benin (Yoruba tribe). Picture below.. I have been offered a similar sword (from another source), the hilt is cast bronze with a zooamorphic design with the same 'dirk' like blade.
Has anyone seen examples like this??

8th October 2006, 09:01 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Heavy Nubian / Nigerian Short sword...age? comments? Just won this ...a Nigerian short sword , 12" (30cms) blade which is 3/16" (4.5mm) thick, double edged . The hilt is bronze, (lost wax cast around the blade) This sword is quite heavy 3lbs 5 ozs (1.5 kgs) No scabbard . The 'Gladius' similarities are obvious....a nice sword for close quarter fighting. I tried to research this type of sword with little sucess....however, I did find a 'similar' one on Therion Arms which had the addition of a cross guard. http://therionarms.com/antiques/ttoy409.html Not certain as to how old this piece is.....however the oxidation of the bronze hilt is consistant with some age. It has evidence of all three stages of oxidation....overall discolouration..dark brown copper oxide film. The formation of copper sulphate which creates thin, light green patches on the more exposed areas. Finally dark scabs and pitting. Please if anyone has any information or comments they are most welcome/ Attached Images

8th October 2006, 11:00 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,058	Probably from Benin Katana: I think your sword is mostly likely from Benin (formerly Dahomey). The heavy bronze/brass hilt with chevron designs is typical of Benin work. There is a previous thread that considerd other Benin swords (hwe) here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=300 Ian.

11th October 2006, 10:37 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Added this picture, looking down on the handle.........seems to have a well formed blade.....definately looks functional to me......but then I'm biased Attached Images

10th November 2006, 10:31 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sword finally arrived today, very heavy and solid......no way a tourist piece...blade is still quite sharp ...even though heavily rusted.....and has a nice 'ring' to it when struck. Gave the blade a careful 'scrape' and wire 'wooled' it ...some areas of deep pitting . Also has fine, diagonal lines which are slightly wavy. I thought at first that it could be a re-worked large file or rasp. But several things don't add up....the blade is a flattened diamond shape (in cross section) and there is evidence of 'forging' marks'. A re-worked 'file' blade often has the 'criss cross' surface noticeable on the thicker portions of the blade ....where it tapers to the 'edge' these tend to disappear either because they are ground/filed down (thus thinning the blade towards the edge) or, as it is forged the 'file teeth' are beaten into the 'file's core'. These 'wavy, diagonal lines traverse from one edge to the other The hilt is very heavy, when handling the sword I noticed that by grasping the hilt near the top (leaves about 4cms of pommel protruding) gives the swinging action more power.....with the added advantage that the pommel could be used to strike an opponent in 'close quarter' combat. Will post pics later.....I think I will need natural light to show up the detail. Also, I re-posted some pics from this post that Ian (thanks)refered to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=stars There are many similarities to the hilt... Attached Images

11th November 2006, 09:35 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	It would help if I uploaded them....... Attached Images

8th October 2006, 09:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	I have never seen any of these ever!!!. Some better pics would help. Can we be sure of the opinion you show. Personally i am really not at all sure that this is African .

8th October 2006, 10:18 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, I have not yet received the sword....so better pics will have to come later. The seller trades alot of African items from West Africa and this is where the sword was sourced. Not that it proves IT IS African....personally my 'gut instinct' says African...the diagonal lines seem typical, the cylindrical 'guardless' hilt etc. The example on Therion is very similar in dimension, weight, the cylindrical hilt and blade design. The blade (on Therion)is 1 3/8" (3.4 cms) longer and is 1/2" (1.2 cm) wider, although mine weighs approx. 5 1/2 ozs more. (approx 150g). The 'Gladius' was hugely successful for the Roman Army, seeing that the coastal areas of North Africa were Roman controlled for many years...I do not think it unreasonable that the design may have been adopted and spread via trading routes. In fact, I am surprised that 'gladius' styled swords seem very atypical,for Africa, especially in certain environments where swinging a larger sword would be awkward. However, I really like the simplicity and 'meatyness' of this sword and if they are rare......ish for Africa and this turns out to be from there.....then

8th October 2006, 11:18 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Ian, now I can add a few more 'key words' in google and see what it turns up

9th October 2006, 09:13 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	I do beg your pardon. I have always associated "hwi" "ada" and "udamalore" as some of the finest and high status work of the city states of West Africa. Much like old fashioned city mayor regalia, its quality varies depending on it wealth and affiliation to the royal household. It does not look like a fighting weapon to me, what do you think? I felt unsure because of the apparent ageing to the brass with not a lot of sign of frequent fondling I love saying that.

9th October 2006, 12:33 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I have seen these swords before with claims they are from Nigeria? Hopefully this is not a Chinese copy of an African sword Just think of it having the market flooded with chinese made repros of this type of stuff Lew

12th October 2006, 07:31 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	I am keen to see some more pictures. One thing that I find a little disconcerting is that the carving in the wax and cast handle does not seem to have any wear so this may be fairly modern. West Africa is well known for its brass casting. I do hope you can allay my fears but I am still a little unsure. Did the seller suggest Nubia/Nigeria? it is a very long way between the two.

12th October 2006, 08:55 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, the seller stated Nubian in the title, which sort of made sense....its close proximity to Egypt, the Romans etc. I began to think 'Gladius' inspired weapon. But the description mentions Nigeria as the country this sword was sourced. I do agree that 'normal' wear of the hilt is not very evident. I checked various metallury sites about the oxidation patterns of bronze (the hilt is stated as bronze) and the patination shows age. Enlarging the pictures of the hilt, I noticed that the edges of the 'grooves' in the hilt seem to show some 'erosion' which also seems to indicate 'age'. I wont receive the sword until the end of next week, at the earliest. But am quite intrigued as to its possible history, (or not) as the case may be. Once I get it 'in hand' I think some of the questions will be answered.....but I have searched and searched on the web, checked images from West African tribal photos and have been unable to find any matches. Other than the Therion Arms ...I have found two separate examples ....which were wood hilted (plain but cylindrical) with a similar blade (slightly longer and the 'point' had slightly arched sides) that were both attributed to the Cameroon.....unfortunately neither stated a tribe.

16th October 2006, 11:39 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The seller has furnished me with additional information... Apparently it was obtained in Nigeria....some years ago...by a Merchant Marine. He was told that the sword was 'NUPE' and he (the seller) insists it is 'battleworthy'. The Nupe had constant conflict with neighbouring tribes and according to my research were skilled 'bronze casters'. Seeing as Dahomey was one such neighbour....Rick's suggestion of Dahomey as the sword's origin seems 'not so wide of the mark'......begining to seem a 'good call' Rick

17th October 2006, 06:55 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	I do hope so. I apologise for my hesitance on this piece. I just felt that amongst many books on the metal casting and art in that part of West Africa I have never seen anything near such a distinctive "gladius" weapon/symbol. One is learning all the time. Would still like to see some more pics.

11th November 2006, 08:03 PM	#15
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gentlemen.....a few photos....any ideas or comments gratefully received...especially to the diagonal, slightly wavy lines

11th November 2006, 09:49 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,745	This is completely new to me. It certainly looks like it was made to do some harm. I do not think it has been forged from an old file, being there are no squashed scale like marks only the heavy use of a file.

12th November 2006, 11:33 AM	#18
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, the blade 'rings' when tapped...suggesting good tempered steel. As mentioned before, the blade is quite sharp...even though there is no evidence of any re-sharpening. The rust I removed from the blade was very dark in colour, almost black, and was not 'loose'....hence the 'scraping'. It suggests reasonable age....early 20c...as a conservative estimate, but that is only my opinion. The blade seems very well made.....perhaps not locally made but, an adapted European blade The hilt and overall finish is very good. It is a shame that there is no scabbard....assuming that it had one originally. If it did, It must have been weighted at the bottom to counteract the weight of the hilt....who knows?? There was another similarly constructed hilted short sword sold on eBay recently...the blade was almost square (in cross section)....a stabbing weapon. The seller stated that it had come from Benin (Yoruba tribe). Picture below.. I have been offered a similar sword (from another source), the hilt is cast bronze with a zooamorphic design with the same 'dirk' like blade. Has anyone seen examples like this?? Attached Images