Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
Then just read the article again. The pictures show exactly Russian knives. This is not reasonable without knowing the subject, to argue with the archives of the Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and the curator of its collection.
That is why I posted these pictures. Just look and learn something more.
You know all sabers have their origins in Turkic traditions? And what?  |
I did actually read the Novosyolov's article. I wonder, however, whether you have read my post as well as Novosyolov's article carefully enough.
Novosyolov's article is kind of divided into 2 parts.
First, he addressed the accepted dogma that pictures by von Herberstein and General Viskovatov reflected the reality by comparison of the old drawings with actual examples from the Moscow museum ( Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin ) that served as original for the pictures.
Among the 6 knives pictured by von Herberstein and Viskovatov not a single one was of Russian origin:
-The first from the left ("belt knife") is actually a baginet ( bayonet) of Swedish manufacture.
-Next one is a dagger with an ivory handle and animal head for a pommel.
Current Museum description defines it as an 18 century Oriental dagger.
-Yet the next one is currently attributed by the Museum as Indian 17-18 century
-Next is by far the most famous dagger of Prince Staritsky, variously called either " kinjal" or " saadak knife". The latter is directly contradicted by the next example( see below) and the former is just a generic term for fighting ( military) knives in Russian language. The defining feature of that dagger is a long and very narrow down-curved blade. Mr. Novosyolov does not provide any attribution and silently agrees with the " kinjal" name. I am surprised that he did not mention the 11-12 century Ghaznavid dagger from the Furussia collection ( " The art of the Muslim knight", Fig. 143), a form virtually identical to the Staritsky's dagger. Somewhat similar Ghaznavid 11-12 century daggers, also with down-curved but wider blades are shown there, too ( ibid. Figs 138-139).
Whether Staritsky's dagger is a later rendition of the above Ghaznavid daggers brought to Russia from some Oriental locality or a Russian made ( unreadable inscriptions " ...imitating Arabic-like inscriptions") is unknown, but its original construction is definitely not Russian, but taken from the above very old daggers.
-Next one is an alleged " saadak knife" with wide yataghan-like blade, currently attributed to Turkey 18 century.
- Next is a so-called" boot knife, in reality Indian 17-18 century
-And the last one is a yet another " boot knife" , in reality Iranian or Turkish Khanjar 18 century.
Thus, this part of Mr. Novosyolov's paper is very important for the Russian study of historical arms. For the first time in the history of the Moscow Museum he actually pulled the models for the von Herberstin and Viskovatovs drawings and destroyed the myth of the " Russian boot, belt and saadak knives". Moreover he had convincingly demonstrated that none of the daggers in question had anything to do with Russian tradition.
I do not argue with Mr. Novosyolov on that , I applaud him.
The second part of his article deals with several remarkably uniform fighting or hunting knives looking like Persian/Indo-Persian Kards with significantly longer blades.
One of them has a mark "OIR" ( or "OIK") in ) Latin letters, and has a silhouette of Oriental " habaki" ( I do not know its Turkish/Persian name, but Philip Tom and Kirill Rivkin use the above moniker, so I adhere to it) applied to the blade with silver koftgari technique. These superficial silhouettes were and still are used on Ottoman yataghans and bichaqs as well as Persian/Indo-Persian Pesh-Kabzes.
They have handle construction reminiscent of Oriental daggers ( separate pommel, grip, bolster) , one has a cylindrical cap bolster with a flat top ( See yataghan of Bayezid II or the Crimean Golden Horde yataghans from Tekstilshchik ( Danilenko, Shvetzov,Gershkovich. Arch. Inst.Natl. Acad.Sci. Ukraine, 1991, vol.58) and Quipchak dagger from Chingul Kurgan (Otroshchenko and Rassamakin, Archeologiya ( Ukr.) 1986, vol. 53). Regretfully, Moscow Museum restoration group put a new cylindrical pommel on another dagger and the authenticity cannot be claimed anymore.
Thus, 1 out of 4 presented allegedly "old Russian" daggers is not Russian at all ( as per decorations and blade markings) and the overall construction of all 4 faithfully reproduces Oriental daggers (blade length does not count: all of the above daggers are defined as the "hunting" ones). Importantly, none show any Russian markings.
To your last comment: Yes, all sabers in the entire world originate from South Siberian/Khazar traditions , Russia being no exception. But we still easily attribute some saber blades to India, Ottomans, Persia, Aravia, SE Asia and even England ( 1796 pattern). I know of no Russian models showing any constructional originality.
Moreover, we are discussing here not sabers, but daggers. Do you know and can you show any fighting shortbladed weapon that would boast unquestionably Russian heritage? I would love to see it and learn something new.
With best wishes.