View Single Post
Old 17th January 2024, 03:19 AM   #26
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,722
Default

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Gustav, I had been expecting somebody to mention this variation, & indeed, several people have already mentioned it to me, not in this forum, but in private correspondence. It is quite flattering to find people paying such close attention to my writing, whether that writing is intended for general public consumption, or for marketing purposes, or for other reasons.

There are a couple of different elements involved in giving you an adequate reply to your comments, so please bear with me.

In my post #24 I wrote this:-

"Names vary, anybody who has any understanding of keris knows that, so we use whatever suits the occasion.

But this is a discussion group, Gustav raised a valid question in discussion so I gave an answer that maybe filled the gap."


In all areas of belief, and I guess, also of knowledge, there are layers of understanding. New information given is, in my experience, only given when the questioner demonstrates an ability to understand that information. This principle definitely applies in respect of the keris, and if we consider other fields, including fields that are distinctly orientated to Western World Culture, perhaps the same principle applies.

Gustav, you raised a pointed question, one specific, clearly stated question. By doing this you demonstrated that you were perhaps ready to move to a different level of understanding.

I provided an answer to your question that would not have been suitable in the context, nor at the time when my previous comment was made. Here is the thread in which I made this comment, the thread dates from nearly 14 years ago, and what I said about these pamors was made as comment, not in response to a question, let alone a pointed question.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11904

I was aware of this thread when I responded to your question in this present thread, but I gave you the response you deserved in any case.

In 2010, and for some time prior to that, the bulk of keris literate people with whom I was in contact seemed to hold the belief that adeg wengkon was the pamor given to newly appointed bupatis, and that this was a universal practice. Where there is a widespread generally held belief, & I hold a different belief, I tend to try not to create controversy by making contentious statements in passing discussion, particularly when I cannot support my statement unless I use more words than the situation calls for. When I consider something is sufficiently important to go deeper, I will do so, as I have in my response to your pointed question.

In that 2010 post my comments on the difference between pamor tejo kinurung & pamor adeg wengkon were directed at the method of manufacture, not at symbolism.

As to the use of the two terms "adeg wengkon" & "tejo kinurung", the common term in everyday usage for this pamor is adeg wengkon, however, I have heard both terms used for the same physical example by the same person, in the same conversation. I do not know why this highly respected person changed from one name to another, it is possible that the variation in usage was simply a convention of Javanese speech where use of a word could cause a less harmonious sound, but this is speculation.

While we are talking about name differences we might like to consider that some people prefer to name tejo kinurung as adeg tiga or adeg telu, then we have others who prefer sodo saler tepen for adeg wengkon.

Gustav, what I write, & also what I say, depends upon the situation, context, time & place, & sometimes the person who asks the question. I do not have only one line of thought on most things. In some fields an element of belief or of knowledge can have only one, fixed unquestionably correct interpretation. In the field of keris belief, & of keris knowledge, this idea of fixed interpretation does not, and cannot, exist.

Many years ago I asked Panembahan Harjonegoro (Alm.) why it was that you could get a different answer regarding the tangguh of a keris, from the same person if you asked that person on various occasions spaced well apart, for an opinion on the tangguh of the same keris.

His response was that Javanese people do not think logically, nor in a fixed pattern, they think emotionally and the answer given to any question will be dictated by emotion & context. Thus, when the respondent is having a good day, a particular keris might be tangguh Mataram Sultan Agungan, but if he is having a bad day the same keris could be tangguh Koripan. Maybe if he is having a really great day, that same keris might get elevated to tangguh Majapahit. Similarly, since Javanese people are fueled by emotion, they do not like to cause others to feel uncomfortable, so often an answer to a question will be what the responder believes the questioner wishes to hear.

My comments & responses vary in a similar way, probably not so much directed by emotion, but directed by context & situation.

Please accept my apologies if this rather flexible way of thinking is not to your liking.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote