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Old 11th October 2007, 04:07 AM   #16
Jim McDougall
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Location: Route 66
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Hi Tom,
By 'important potential' I meant that if indeed this is pre-Seringpatam (before 1799) and with the tiger allegory, it could very well be a piece associated with Tipu Sultans court. Although admittedly ambitious, there is always the possibility. Naturally, it is also possible that the weapon could be from the 19th century as Ward suggests, and numerous weapons commemorating the defeat of Tipu were produced in the decades after the event.

Incidentally, the ricasso is the root of the blade just below the guard, also on sabres referring to the blunt area in that region where the edge terminates.

Your points concerning serrated edges being extremely labor intensive are quite valid, and may be considered a factor in the small numbers of them found. While of course these would be more difficult to produce, they are equally as difficult to maintain as sharpening would be very difficult. The discussions on these blades have occurred over many years on these forums, and unfortunately many of these are not presently accessible as they are in the archives, which seem to be unavailable. I also wish I had access to my notes which included some of the points made as the dynamics of these blades were discussed.

What I do recall is that in Pant (p.56-57, "Indian Arms and Armour") he notes that serrated blades had been found unsuitable for use against armor, and abandoned use of such blades by the late 17th c. Was is unclear is obviously what type of armour..obviously no sword blade was of any use in striking armor, and if he referred to the heavy quilted armor, even that was greatly resistant to cuts. It seems that it was noted in another discussion that the serration in a slashing cut caused uneven contact that interfered with the cut. I have always deferred on these 'dynamics' discussions to the martial arts guys, who actually test things etc.

Wards katar certainly looks menacing, and of course deadly. It is quite unusual in that the serration and the disc are not typically seen on these. It may well be from northern India and as noted, could not be mistaken for a parade piece. It appears of standard katar size, and of steel. It is of course of form intended for armor piercing, and close quarters combat in design. I would concede that the serration would afford effective cutting action in both thrust and withdrawal in concept. I am somewhat surprised this feature was not more widely used, but for the thoughts we have discussed on the practicality.

Your katar is profusely decorated, and of course presumably for court use as discussed. It is important to note that in actuality these transversely gripped weapons, the katar and pata, in southern and central India were used in slashing cuts, with thrusting very much discouraged. As I have mentioned, the serrated edge has somewhat disputed effectiveness in this use, so I would hold to the suggestion that the feature on your blade would be more to visual effect. In court, clearly the objective was to impress, and this weapon certainly does do that. Returning to Tipu, and at the risk of being overspeculative, I would point out that he was quite the showman, if the look at his elaborately uniformed armies etc. The tiger attacking his prey seems an obvious allegory, as Tipu fashioned himself "The Tiger of Mysore", and the animal victim symbolizing his unfortunate enemy.

It does seem that most Indian weapons are arbitrarily presumed 19th century mostly because it is relatively safe to do so, and indeed the huge volume of weapons collected in this period provide plausible provenance. However, as Elgood has noted, it is not unreasonable to find many examples, especially the higher quality ones, to be earlier and in unusually good condition .

I would like to say that I very much admire your courteous and respectful demeanor in your postings, and it is indeed a pleasure talking with you. ...not to mention the fabulous weapon you have posted for us to discuss.
There is a great deal of knowledge here as you have noted, and we all continue to learn together, so thank you for joining us!!!

With all best regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2007 at 02:25 PM. Reason: restructure wording in sentence
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