Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - 12th-13th Century Jinete Swords?

Jim McDougall · Today, 07:55 PM

I am working on finding answers here, but still have to get to main references not at hand at the moment.
Apparently (per the link) the effigy which has the likeness of the sword in question was of a one of the warriors/knights of the d'Alluye family in a tomb in the Cistercian abbey of La Ciarte-Dieu in Touraine who lived 1248-1267.

As noted by Helmut Nickel (1991) the trilobate pommel is contrary to those of most European swords on these times, and the influence seems to come more likely from Chinese sources. At this point I am inclined to agree as Nickel was one of the top authorities (IMO) on these topics. Still there are always those anomalies which of course did occur.

The 'jinete' were of course cavalry, mounted warriors whose influence had come from Moroccan regions from the initial incursions of Muslim forces c. 711AD.
and situated primarily in al-Andalus Granada in SE Spain. The conflicts with Castilian forces known vaguely as the Reconquista began shortly later but did not reach notable traction until the 1200s.

While the 'jinete' style and influence was indeed Muslim and from these early warriors, it naturally impacted the forces of Spain. Ironically, despite the portrayal of El Cid (1943-1099) as the hero of the Reconquista in his time, like many crusaders, as a mercenary he fought on the side of Muslims at some points.

The Spanish forces used foreign mercenaries in their armies, and according to Arnold Blumberg, writing in "Medieval Warfare" ("The Hundred Years War in Spain" , Vol.3, #1, 2013, pp.18-21) the Christian leaders of Spain used foreign mercenaries, mostly from France, starting about late 11th c.

Given these circumstances, it does not seem that French mercenaries would have used 'Spanish' forms of weapon, however it would seem possible that they might have brought back Spanish types returning to France.
That leaves us trying to discover any examples of Spanish arms of the period in early 1200s which might have this trilobate pommel.

It seems there is an article by Nicolle, on two swords found in Gibraltar, which I am trying to locate, as well as his 2 volume reference. Im not sure Calvert ("Spanish Arms& Armor" would have anything).

Until later, great topic. Hope you're still here.

Today, 07:55 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	Working on it I am working on finding answers here, but still have to get to main references not at hand at the moment. Apparently (per the link) the effigy which has the likeness of the sword in question was of a one of the warriors/knights of the d'Alluye family in a tomb in the Cistercian abbey of La Ciarte-Dieu in Touraine who lived 1248-1267. As noted by Helmut Nickel (1991) the trilobate pommel is contrary to those of most European swords on these times, and the influence seems to come more likely from Chinese sources. At this point I am inclined to agree as Nickel was one of the top authorities (IMO) on these topics. Still there are always those anomalies which of course did occur. The 'jinete' were of course cavalry, mounted warriors whose influence had come from Moroccan regions from the initial incursions of Muslim forces c. 711AD. and situated primarily in al-Andalus Granada in SE Spain. The conflicts with Castilian forces known vaguely as the Reconquista began shortly later but did not reach notable traction until the 1200s. While the 'jinete' style and influence was indeed Muslim and from these early warriors, it naturally impacted the forces of Spain. Ironically, despite the portrayal of El Cid (1943-1099) as the hero of the Reconquista in his time, like many crusaders, as a mercenary he fought on the side of Muslims at some points. The Spanish forces used foreign mercenaries in their armies, and according to Arnold Blumberg, writing in "Medieval Warfare" ("The Hundred Years War in Spain" , Vol.3, #1, 2013, pp.18-21) the Christian leaders of Spain used foreign mercenaries, mostly from France, starting about late 11th c. Given these circumstances, it does not seem that French mercenaries would have used 'Spanish' forms of weapon, however it would seem possible that they might have brought back Spanish types returning to France. That leaves us trying to discover any examples of Spanish arms of the period in early 1200s which might have this trilobate pommel. It seems there is an article by Nicolle, on two swords found in Gibraltar, which I am trying to locate, as well as his 2 volume reference. Im not sure Calvert ("Spanish Arms& Armor" would have anything). Until later, great topic. Hope you're still here.