Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings
 

Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings. Is anyone able to read or identify any of these markings that came out when I cleaned the scabbard today?

Possible Turkish Tugra?

Thanks.

About identification...I am curious what is the reason why this type of daggers are designated as Albanian?
About the marking...The first is the sultan's tugrah is placed on silver objects certifying paid taxes to the treasury.The rest are the master's stamp:)

Thank you. Any idea which Sultans Tugrah this might be, to show its age?

I’m not sure why they are designated as Albanian. Is it because this type of grip was more in Vogue up there perhaps?

I would love to see the blade! to see what type of construction Albanians preferred.

The hilt shape looks rather Kurdish...

Not arguing your point, but I have seen other hilts in this style labeled Balkan or Albanian. If someone could explain the fine differences in the hilts that would be enlightening and amazing :confused:

Thanks for any help,
IP

The possibilities are two, maximum three Mahmud II or Abdul Hamid II. It is highly unlikely to be Selim III.

I believe the designation of these daggers as Albanian or Balkan is completely wrong!

The turgha stamp on this one points towards a TURKISH origin, and not Albanian.
Moreover the style of these daggers has nothing to do with Albanian traditional motifs.
Last, but not least, Albania had no tradition in producing weapons and there are no known historical examples of this type of "albanian daggers" or anything similar BEFORE the Turkish Ottoman occupation.

So, I am convinced this is a TURKISH hançer, either made in Turkey (most certainly because of the Turgha punch mark) or made somewhere else in the Ottoman empire by a Turkish swordsmith.

I have seen many other types of swords, daggers, or even yataghans atributed to Greece, Albania, Bosnia or generally "the Balkans" that are typically Turkish. I believe this to be a major error that continues to be propagated and amplified through anecdotal means.

Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

So, is a yataghan that was made by a Turkish swordsmith that moved along with the Turkish army and was stationed in Greece, Greek?! Or can we say that the yataghans produced by him are Greek?!

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

While there are some, very few, typical Ottoman weapons like yataghans or kilijes that have clear stylistic particularities that allow them to be confidently attributed to Greece or the Balkans, the majority are not, and should be considered as Turkish, if there are no clearly distinguishable features that distinguishes them from the ones made in "mainland Turkey."

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

Albeit you are trying to be sarcastic, you are mostly right.

The Eastern Roman Empire had its own weapons producing centers that were producing Roman weapons.

The smaller "empires" you mentioned used mostly imported weapons.

None of these "empires" developed any significant weapons producing centers. This is both a cause and an effect of them remaining more like early centralized states than true empires. They are called "empires" because they conquered and brought under a centralized rule more small early medieval proto-states.

If any of the pre-ottoman Balkan states would have had a significant role in the production of weapons, there would have been
1. written or at least iconographic records about it (as there are the early Utrecht and Stuttgart psalters, or later writings about Toledo, Solingen, Passau, etc.);
2. a plethora of archeological finds of pre-ottoman weapons characteristic to these states (like there are for example the "viking swords" attesting the existence of major production centers in the Holy Roman Empire).
There are none!

And we should not confuse a swordsmith workshop that is mostly repairing and furbishing blades produced elsewhere with a production center!
And one blade here, another blade there, won't make for a weapons production tradition either!

Absolutely right. Moreover. I do not see any "Albanian" decor on this dagger. If there was such a decor, one could at least somehow say that this dagger is "Albanian"

Bravo, Marius!

Yes, I do also find it odd that this could be attributed to being Albanian, when all the markings show Turkish provenance. At least to my limited level of knowledge on these types of bladed weapons.

Here are two pics of the blade.

I have two, similar with yours.

They both have wootz blades. This is enough to completely invalidate its "Albanian" attribution as wootz was not produced in Europe at that time (with the exception of some Turkish smiths).

It is quite likely that yours is wootz too so you may want to clean and check the blade for wootz.

I was looking at the medial ridge and koftgari thinking the same thing. I can't see the finer motifs and/or inscriptions. Odd thing I did notice that I will have to look at other examples and see if it is a common occurrence is that if you look at the two halves of the koftgari as a whole it looks like the vessel motif.

I still think it's Kurdish. Kurds occupy a rather large part of eastern Türkiye, as well as in Iran/Iraq.


My Ottoman Kurdish jambiya/khanjar, it's wootz, by the way:

Yours is just a bigger fancier version.

My friend, you are wrong. Of course, Kurdish and Ottoman khanjars are somewhat similar. But this is a very distant "kinship". I had several richly decorated Kurdish daggers. They are decorated in a completely different style.

Of course there are similarities between your Kurdish dagger and the one above!

But even more similarities are between your Kurdish dagger and a classic Persian khanjar. Yet your dagger is Kurdish, not Persian because of the very few, but distinctive differences.

The same goes with this dagger. It is Turkish, not Albanian, nor Kurdish, because of the few but very typically Turkish differences... without mentioning the presence of the Turgha punch mark that would be inconceivable on a Kurdish dagger.

And I believe the Turgha punch mark proves this dagger was made by a smith associated with the Ottoman imperial court, as to my knowledge, only few smiths were granted the right to use the Turgha stamp, namely those closely associated with the imperial court. That's why I also believe the place of manufacture of this dagger was in Istanbul area.

A german auction house once sold one similar described as such. I link the description to this discussion, without being agree with the Albanian assessment.
" A silver-mounted Ottoman khanjar, 19th century.
Curved, double-edged blade with a central ridge on both sides (rust spots in places). Silver mounted handle with engraved decoration, partially repaired crack in the middle. Wooden scabbard is made of partly engraved silver plate decorated with pearl bands (small dents) with silver inlays and engraved inscription. Length 45.2 cm.
Coming from the estate of Lieutenant General of the Yugoslav People's Army Vaso Jovanović (1915 - 2013). According to tradition, it is a looted weapon that used to belong to an Albanian leader."
That is the only reference that would make it Albanian and..... it is quite thin.

As said above, it is Ottoman, potentially Turkey or neighbouring country. That kind of silver work can be seen on khanjar from other form found in nowadays Iraq and sometimes Iran

Ignorance is no excuse and lack of knowledge in this forum can not be the case. I could state the same (unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!) of the above but think honestly that your are misguided resulting in some assumptions which are not all that correct.

First of all if one does search my contributions, one will find many books and publications which proof the opposite of your above statement and Turkoman arkadash's approval of being no literature on the Balkan region ( as Albania historically is much bigger than the present state...so we ought to talk about a specific Balkanregion ☺)
No disrespect and no offence intended!
I am talking about approx 40 to 50 of them in all kind of languages from all kind of countries. Between 1850 and 2020. So please do not say there is nothing written.

As for Albania (and part of Dalmatia and Bosnia even up to Slovenia), the original inhabitants (the Illyrians); many books and publications have been written as well during the last 4 decades.
Wiki also has brief info on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_weaponry

Back to Elgood: I previously stated in this forum and in literature confirmation can be found that his writting on the Balkans is based on "borrowing" from the Serbian lady Đurđica Petrović who wrote books and many publications on the topic which are a tremendous source of knowledge. (2 examples: Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku / Dubrovnik arms in the XIV century and Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) / Balkan arms X11 - XIX century)

Also in research gate you can find many publictions and books contradicting your statement and providing info on Balkan arms from before the Ottoman Empire. And not all Roman of Byzantine remnants but own developements by or during kingdoms like the Nemanjas or Asens)

A recommandation f.i. : Enes Dedić: Mirsad Sijarić, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka, Univerzitet u Sarajevu – Zemaljski muzej Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo 2014.

Long story short: there is a lot to be found nowadays in Romania, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia and Albania... if we only open our eyes and minds and leave the western tunnelvision home and yes; many of us do not master the language if books and publications are not translated, but that does not mean it doesn't exist...
Let's not forget many was ignored till 1990ies due to the cold war in which a lot was sadly ignored comming from "the other" side
And with google translate you can find your way through these books if you do not master a Slavic language...

Last but not least: when I joined this forum a couple of years ago, I was choqued by the lack of knowledge on Balkan cold weapons, with the exception of a lad with Bulgarian roots.
Too many "I think" and assumptions but no real knowledge of the weapons, the literature / books and details on the topics like kamas, bichaqs, yataghans. Yes a lot collected them and sold them due to their "exotic" nature but nowhere near the knowledge you guys have on rencongs, klewangs, kerrises and other cold weapons from the Indonesian archipelago....

F.y.i. : I am Dutch before somebody accuses me again here of being bias because I was thought in the past by a smart--beep to be a guy with Balkan roots and hence not objective.
I am a 100% born and raised "Cloggy"☺☼☺

I am not talking about the cold weapons presented here above to be Albanian, which do look to me like originating from Irak, Kurdistan, parts of Turkey close to the previous two mentioned countries.

But the whole discussion was about the so called "Albanian" dagger presented above and other typically Turkish weapons that are attributed to Greece or the Balkans without any, but anecdotal evidence!

And yes, I know the Illyrian weapons, as I know about the Dacian and the Celtic ones too. But these were produced and used more than 1000 (one thousand) years before the period I was referring to.
And yes, there is much historical and archeological evidence attesting that the ancient populations of the Balkans made and used their own weapons like the sica, the falx or the rhomphaia, but this is not the period I was referring to!
And betwen the period you are referring to and the period I was referring to, there were the so called "Dark Ages," a period of hundreds of years of social, economic and intellectual decline.

So, once again, I was not referring to the period of antiquity, but that of the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance before the Ottoman conquest.

yet there still are publications on that period, just look for them...that is what I want to say.

A lot of knowledge is "dark" to many like f.i. the incompletness of Elgood . My intension is to go for the real sources

OK, I will try to answer this in the most serious, and hopefully the most productive manner possible.

When it comes to the specific khanjar that started the thread, I am actually inclined to agree that it is Turkish. So I am not arguing about this particular item.

However, the very generalized statement that the vast majority of Balkan weapons from the 18th and 19th centuries are actually Turkish is incorrect on multiple levels.

There was extensive arms and armor production in the Balkans during these times, documented by the Ottoman administration itself for the purpose of administering the craftsmen and merchants and collect appropriate taxes. Elgood has done a great job of providing references to these records. In fact, a good portion of the arms and armor production in the Balkans was exported all over the Ottoman Empire and even as far as areas under nominal Ottoman control, such as Algeria for example.

Moreover, it is very hard to claim an exclusive ethnic origin of a certain weapon. Is the yataghan a Turkish weapon or a Balkan one? If Turkish, why did it not exist in Central Asia where the Seljuks come from, but only appears in the 16th century following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, where such blades existed all the way back in antiquity? Is the kilic a Turkish weapon considering the hilt was probably adopted from the Mamluks and the curved saber was known and used in the Balkans back in the 9th century AD, if not even earlier? Even when it comers to firearms like the lednice and rat tail pistols there is probably a strong case to be made that these are local Balkan versions inspired by Italian originals.

This is not meant to deny that there were Ottoman contributions to the production of arms and armor in the Balkans - it was in the interest of the Ottoman military to foster and encourage such production. Ottoman stylistic and decorative influence is also undeniable, just like it is in other areas of the Empire, but the vast number of different regional types of arms and accoutrements also shows strong local participation in the development and evolution of these items.

As collectors we have the option to label anything produced within the territory of the Ottoman Empire as Ottoman, regardless of whether it is a Laz yatagahan, a Yemeni jambiya or an Albanian rat tail pistol. This is the approach of the Askeri Museum and all its publications for example. Alternatively, we can acknowledge that a multi-ethnic empire that stretched over three continents had all kinds of regional variations in its arms and armor, all with their local names and users, which included a variety of people that were not Turks.

Yet, you are generally referring again to the period POST the ottoman occupation of the Balkans!

"There was extensive arms and armor production in the Balkans during these times, documented by the Ottoman administration itself for the purpose of administering the craftsmen and merchants and collect appropriate taxes. Elgood has done a great job of providing references to these records. In fact, a good portion of the arms and armor production in the Balkans was exported all over the Ottoman Empire and even as far as areas under nominal Ottoman control, such as Algeria for example."

This all refers to the production of arms AFTER the Ottoman occupation!

Where are the archeological finds of "yathagans," (if the yathagan originated in the Balkans) or other Balkan made weapons BEFORE the Ottoman occupation?!

The Bulgarians, Serbs, Greek, Romanians and Albanians all fought bitterly against the Ottoman invasion, yet all archeological finds from that period reveal only Western European (mostly Italian and Spanish blades) and Turkish weapons.

And while we might speculate that the Turkish yataghan was inspired by the Greek kopis or the Iberian falcata, there is no historical evidence to support this. Nothing whatsoever. There isn't a single find of kopis/falcata/yathagan type blade dating from the Middle Ages. As there is no archeological evidence that curved blades with the edge on the outside were produced in the Balkans before the Ottoman occupation. Not even in the antiquity with the exception of the kopis, falcata and of the curved blades used by the Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians, namely the sica, the falx and the rhompaia that were all derived from agricultural tools, and had a single edge on the inside of the curvature.
And between their use and the appearance of curved swords passed more than 1000 years of use of straight swords.

You mentioned that the curved swords were known in the Balkans from the 9th century. I am not familiar with this, and if I remember correctly the curved blades (with the edge on the outside) appeared in the 8th century with the "people of the steppes" and were brought to Europe in the 9th century by Magyar and Turkic (Turkic meaning the ancestors of the current day Turks) tribes. Moreover, there is a big way between being known and being produced...
And by the way, the Mamluks were also Turkic.

I attach below a photo of the sword of Stephen the Great of Moldavia (kept in Topkapi Palace museum in Istanbul) who fought successfully more than 30 battles against the Ottomans while sporting his sword with a Toledo blade.

And as I said earlier, I do not consider a blade made by a Turkish smith, in a clear Turkish style (without any features that would differentiate it from a similar weapon made in Istanbul), as a Balkan blade only because it was produced in workshop located somewhere in the Balkans.

But this is my take, based on my incomplete knowledge on the subject. It may be quite far from truth but as long as I do not see compelling historical evidence to prove it wrong, I will stick to it.

Very logical approach, but it ignores the cultural context entirely. Apart from the location of where something was produced or assembled, the cultural context matters.

I am attaching an example. The weapon in the attached photo derives from the Italian storta, especially in terms of the blade and the guard. The blade itself was made in Europe, quite possibly Italy as well or Central Europe. It is hard to say who fashioned the grip, which is decorated in Ottoman style. If I had to make an educated guess, a descendant of Jewish migrants from Iberia seems like a plausible option. Its intended user was almost certainly a corsair of either Turkish origins or a Dutch or English renegade.

If we follow your approach, then this is really an Italian cutlass or an Italian/Ottoman hybrid. And yet, Eric Claude would call this an Algerian nimcha, even though apart from being assembled in Algeria, its parts, makers and users were not Algerian per se. He does so because these nimchas were regionally specific to Algeria, where they were used by corsairs operating out of Algerian ports.

When I refer to a weapon as Albanian or Sudanese or Viking, it is a cultural and regional attribution rather than a claim on ethnic origins. The latter is usually very difficult to lay an absolute claim on anyway.

What you are saying only validates my point.

You call this an ALGERIAN NIMCHA precisely because it has some very distinctive features of an Algerian nimcha... while it might have been assembled in Morocco or in Egypt, or in Malta. Yet you clasify it based on the clear distinctive features. Same way a yataghan that has all the features of a Turkish yataghan is still a Turkish yataghan even if it was assembled in Bosnia.

However, if the yataghan displays some distinctive features that sets it apart from the mainland Turkish yataghans, like a characteristic front bolster and pommel or some specific decorations, then it can be considered as a Greek/Bosnian yataghan.

Gentlemen,

Let me offer an analogy from a completely different and modern perspective. In Australia we no longer manufacture automobiles, pickups, or trucks. However, we do assemble vehicles from parts imported from overseas. Until recently, we had a venerable old Australian car company called Holden. For the last 20 years or so it has imported parts from Japanese manufacturers and assembled the vehicles in Australia, and branded them as Holdens, and therefore Australian vehicles (not Japanese). However, some of those same Japanese carmakers exported fully assembled vehicles to Australia and sold them here under their own brand name. Exactly the same vehicles but two different companies, one Australian and one Japanese.

Elsewhere, local assembly outside the country of origin can add certain "preferred local options," and might even create its own industry to manufacture a new version, imitating the original and eventually achieving comparable quality. In time the original form becomes rebranded as a local product.

It happens a lot. Can we not have the same scenario with swords?

Whatever designation is given depends on who is talking. Australian/Japanese? Turkish/Armenian?

If an Armenian insists his yataghan is an Armenian sword, I'm not going to argue with him. It's his sword. So I'm happy to say that an Armenian adaptation of an Ottoman yataghan or kilij is an Armenian sword when it has been made or assembled in Armenia and used by an Armenian. Just as I'm happy to drive my Australian Holden Colorado pick-up that was assembled in Australia.