Spiral,
I own and have read at least one of his books. Not being a collector of European military swords, I cannot judge the correctness of his attributions. Nevertheless, they seem to be researched and based on genuine knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his opinion and his integrity.


I really did not like your formatting of the citation of my posting: yours put a "smiley-face" directly after my characterization of Mr. Withers as a "well-known and respected dealer", thus giving an impression that I was sardonic about his reputation. The original posting had no such thing.

In the future, please be more careful with citing other peoples' texts.

Thanks.

I wouldn't have such impression, Ariel; instead i would attribute the sardonic tone to the other party, in the context. But surely the insertion of the smiley in the quotation of your text was a accident; Jonathan would not think of doing such offense in purpose.
Back on track, Gentlemen.

ariel's post did have a smiley face, just after 'century'. looks like spiral cut the text out before the smiley and after his intended section & didn't realize what he'd done. always best to replace missing text with an elipsis...:)

i tend to accidentally create frowny faces when listing examples with a parenthetical comment,

like this one:(which should have looked like)

one: (which...)


'nuff said.

Didn't realise there was a smiley face there Ariel, Apologies for my slap dash cut & paste.

As Fernando recognised & Kronckew points out, it was an error of miss editing, not intentional....

Withers books featuring Ethnographic stuff would be of more value to this thread.

All the best,
Spiral

Issue closed. Thanks for the explanation.
What ethnographic books by Withers are you referring to? I am not familial with them and would love to know.

mmmm Cant fully recall Ariel, but I think Ive still got one, a friend gave me as a present somewhere... Give me a day or so to see if I can find it....

;) {Deliberate smiley!} :eek:

:-)))

Found it, the titles not quite as grandiose as Cameron Stones, but its getting there!

"The World Encyclopaedia of Swords & Sabres, An Authoritative History & Visual Directory of Edged Weapons from Around the World."

Including 800 stunning colour pictures...

Sounds good!

Some of the items feature in another book by the same author with a different tile as I recall, from browsing in a second hand bookshop.

Here 3 items featured in it in it, I could select many more...

nothing to add about a clash of views except to show that the crown can be quite modern. i really do not think it is Victorian. This is a crown on a yard stick with E ans R either side the present monarch of the UK.

Oops!!!
Well, that's what Im talking about though. While the Kenyan seme' is a properly identified item , the first item, which is clearly a sabre from Mali but referred to as a Hausa 'takouba' (????) from Nigeria is a 'howler' ...yikes!
The item from 'Malaysia' of course would be difficult to explain under that heading (no pun intended) .
Thank you for elaborating on the infractions noted in the reference to Mr. Withers book(s) specifically.

As mentioned, Stone has a number of almost bizarre gaffs as well, but overall stands as a well venerated and respected volume, so I suppose a certain number of these becomes forgivable considering the relative content which holds true.

Regarding the crown, true, this example which is simply stamped into lead might well be construed to other rulers in the British monarchy. The Georgian crown on gun locks for example could well be considered also.
In my own thought, I would regard this crown simply stamped without other context as Victorian if for no other reason than the extremely long and significant period her reign covered (1837-1901).
In the British Empire, reference to her monarchy as 'the Crown' became almost a standard in my view, and a simple crown without other context would attest to property in that case.

While obviously this subjective view does not adequately identify this particular crown as 'Victorian' but explains my tendency to the thought that it probably is.

Thanks Jim, it was the date of the Seme that got me! So many other bits of silliness throughout it as well .

But at least his published lots of books & sold many such pieces.

Stone was at the forefront of research & didn't have the internet, 5 minutes research on any of these arms on this or many others sites would, while not be perfect set him on a straighter line....
spiral

Agreed, in many things published there are items and comments that prove to be pretty funny. I can recall many years ago certain mail order catalogs had descriptions and text with items which many of us would browse through and end up hysterical! These became like comic books, and we enjoyed them for years.
What was horrible was the times that some authors actually used some of these catalog descriptions as supporting evidence!!!???in their published work.
I guess that why we're here, to set things straight as much as possible on identifying items, and sharing knowledge so the newer guys can be aware when they are buying.

Stone was remarkably prudent as he took on his monumental task, and knew the pitfalls he would face. He responsibly noted to readers that there would be potential errors, and encouraged future collectors, researchers and scholars to keep moving forward in further study and resolution.
His work will always stand as the benchmark, and all these years later, here we are!!! I think he would be delighted!!!

Google , George 6th pillar box crowns.

indeed Jim its a shame when gross inaccuracies in books or in even nowadays internet articles, that are are used to inflate the prices of junk pieces...

Chaps, the crown on the lead stamp is for the last 2 century's at least a Queens crown not a Kings, Its either Vickys or Lizzies, but as it is stamped in lead in reverse, from a true stamp it clearly, not an old British museum stamp. {Even impoverished carpenters had there own steel stamps made, to mark there tools in Victorian times, never mind museums!}

More like an impression made from a Crown button, buckle or some such. Cold pressed into a piece of soft lead.

Spiral :shrug:

Guys, I am really enjoying it:-)
Seriously, I truly admire your attention to details and unexpected approaches to the riddles of attribution.
Great twist of the discussion!

Glad your enjoying it, were always here for you Ariel! ;)

I wonder what Afghan vegetable or other natural dyes would create that bright red scabbard colouring & maintain it for 100 plus years? :shrug:

linky..

Spiral[

I see your point, but we do not know where and under what conditions this scabbard spent the last 150 years:-)
I recently saw pics of Jane Fonda....

you poor thing. what has been seen cannot be unseen

(she's 77 BTW)

jane with her makeup off taking a toke off her spliff:

Exceedingly plain, I'm afraid. I assume mid-late 20th c, acquired in Kabul's Chicken Street buried beneath much more obviously modern junk.

Not 100% certain if this belongs here but anyway.
New acquisition from a forum member, thanks again.
I do appreciate its simple design very much.

Cheers,
taube.

My one and only.
I think this qualifies in this thread.

Not exactly a choora, more of a karud I would say.

I would call this a pesh.

Choora, karud, pesh.