I agree Ian. What i did find relevant about the blog article was that it had a martial arts perspective and spoke about the Sarimanok as being used as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. But as i also pointed out, there are no points of reference for these observations so it's hard to say what the truth is here.
Thanks for copying them though. I hate when links disappear.

This Sarimanok thing has got me intrigued, but I cannot speak the Maranao language, and since it appears that the Sarimanok first appeared within Maranao culture it is essential that anybody attempting to fathom the original meaning and intent of the word "Sarimanok" must begin by gaining a knowledge of the language, then the culture and society.

So, rather than assemble all of the possible meanings for the two words "sari" and "manok" why not home in on the language of the people who first gave birth to the Sarimanok?

The word "sari" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese. In these languages it has a number of meanings, some related, some unrelated, and it can also be a woman's name.

It would surprise me if it did not have a number of meanings in the Maranao language also, and the probable meaning to choose then becomes a matter of context.

Incidentally, the word "sari" with various accented pronunciations, as well as "sati" and "sara" with a similar number of accented pronunciation variations also appear in Sanscrit. The origin of the word "sari" is far from a settled matter amongst those people who make the study of language their profession.

The word "manuk/manok" appears to be indigenous Malay, and again, where it appears in an Indonesian language it can have a variety of applications, but principally it means "bird".

What is the correct meaning of the word "manok/manuk" in the Maranao language?

When it is understood clearly exactly what the word "Sarimanok" means within an enlightened Maranao cultural context, then perhaps it may be possible go behind this first level of understanding by probing the Maranao cultural understanding of the idea of "Sarimanok".

Possibly when the matter is thoroughly understood, we may find that there is a relationship between the Sarimanok as a pommel and ancestor/dewa/dewi as ancestor that applies with weapon hilts of other Indianised SE Asian states.

Alan,

I agree with much of what you say about understanding the Maranao language and culture. However, the present discussion refers back to the shape of the hilt that Cato has termed kakatua. This shape is not peculiarly Maranao and features prominently among all Moro groups--including the Maguindanao, the various groups in the Sulu Archipelago, and those in N. Borneo and the Brunei Sultanate. The style has also been identified in Malaysian examples.

It would seem that we need to look beyond the Maranao if Ron's thesis is to be tested. That's a substantial task if we are to understand the meaning of sarimanok among all these groups, or even whether sarimanok has a significant meaning for groups other than the Maranao.

Ian.

Yes Ian, I do understand that the discussion concerns the shape of the hilt and whether it actually represents a kakatau or a sarimanok.

I have no intention at all of getting involved in this, simply because I believe I would need to devote far more time than I have available to assemble a cultural, societal and linguistic base that would permit me to provide a defensible opinion.

However, to my way of thinking, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking is very often out of synch with most of the people who contribute to this Forum, to my way of thinking it is absolutely essential to gain an understanding of exactly how the Sarimanok is understood by the people within the Maranao community who have the indigenous cultural knowledge that would enable those people to form a valid opinion in respect of the way in which the Sarimanok can be legitimately understood.

Once that understanding, which is the cultural property of the people who originated the idea of the Sarimanok, is available to people who are outside the framework of Maranao culture and society, then, and only then might it become possible for those "outsiders" to attempt to understand sufficient to form an opinion on the validity of Sarimanok or of kakatua.

I know virtually nothing of Maranao culture, but I do have a pretty solid grasp of the belief patterns of the peoples of the Indianised states of SE Asia. It is my feeling --- I emphasise "feeling" --- that when this matter finally comes to an acceptable conclusion that we shall be able to see connections between the cultural relevance of these Maranao hilts, and the cultural relevance of other weapon hilts throughout Maritime SE Asia, most especially in those parts of SE Asia that can be regarded as having been subject to influence from the Indian Sub-Continent.

But before any of that can happen I believe it is necessary to come to a valid understanding of exactly what it is that is under discussion, and the core of this discussion is centered around two physical things that in their cultural settings have become ideas. My approach to this riddle would be to first attempt to understand those ideas from a Maranao perspective. I would not focus on form and personal opinion, these could come later.

In any case, it is an interesting discussion, even if it seems to be going nowhere. I'm enjoying it.

Linky exchange program :)

The icon relevance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=70

My perception of the icon
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=71

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=72

The further discussion
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27729

Necro'ing this thread because I fancied putting a Maranao kris (with a vintage hilt) beside my vintage sarimanok.

It's pretty close- but in the correct-side-up orientation, not in the upside-down pommel orientation. The upside-down is incompatible because a sarimanok's tail is always upward-oriented :)

Well, as with most things that we encounter in SEA, there are multiple ways of interpreting just about everything. So while we can imagine just the head depicted here with the the kris in one orientation i don't think we need to dismiss the possibility of the entire body being depicted in the reverse position. And while i agree that in most old sculptural depictions of sarimanok the tail section is oriented upward i have also seen many images of sarimanok (albeit, more recent ones) where it goes downward.
Regardless of how we interpret it though, i still favour sarimanok as the bird in question. I cannot find anything in Moro or Filipino lore that makes any strong spiritual connect to the kakatua, while sarimanok has strong mythological connections in this area.

Good point- although it's very much possible to isolate the imagery based on the traditions inherent in each Moro tribe within a specific era- in my example, since it's vintage Maranao sarimanok and vintage Maranao hilt, the upturned version is the strong basis, and not the upside-down (since the down-tail emerged in modern time already). The Maranao elders and researchers that I've consulted with also never discussed the pommel in an upside-down fashion, so that says a lot.

But that doesn't mean the upside-down version ceases to be a possible symbolism- at least from other POVs. Symbolism may differ depending on the Moro tribe in question- what may be a "kakatua as sarimanok" from the Maranao POV, for example, may be a different interpretation from the Yakan POV; at the same time the Tausug have their own symbolism, etc. Additionally- Mindanao-made kakatua differs from Sulu-made kakatua in terms of design aesthetic. And it's not only the pommel- oral traditions regarding the origin of shared blades such as the kris/kalis, for example, may vary not only per tribe, but per family lineage as well.

In a nutshell, interpretation of Moro imagery is based (and modified) by the following:
1. Era (and sometimes area too)
2. Tribe
3. Family lineage

These should all be taken into context to arrive at a strong interpretation regarding symbolism/imagery.

I have always thought the same thing Xasterix. I agree and thank you for comparing the two in pictures.

BTW - on the kris is the hilt later to the blade? Would love to see a picture of the whole kris.

Glad we're of the same mind sir! I'll post the kris in the talismanic symbols thread =)

Hi xas,

I really like your Sarimanok! That's a nice piece and it includes, of course, the little fish.

I agree completely with your criteria for interpretation of imagery on Moro weapons. I would add that "Era" includes not just cultural issues among the Moro groups, but also the political balance between these Moro groups and influences from external entities (such as the Brunei Sultanate, Malayan States, the Celebes, etc.).

It has been my understanding that the Sarimanok legend and icon was and remains primarily a cultural focus of the Maranao people of Mindanao. That this icon would filter to some degree into Maguindanao society wo9uld not be surprising, given that the Maranao were (usually) part of the Maguindanao Sultanate. Diffusion of this cultural icon to the neighboring Iranum might also be expected. The question is really to what extent the Sarimanok iconography was embraced by groups outside Mindanao.

Do the Sulu groups (primarily Tausug, Yakan, and Sama) embre=ace the Sarimanok icon in the same manner as the Maranao? Perhaps you have some knowledge of that level of diffusion. And what of the more distant groups that employ the same style of hilt, such as the Brunei Sultanate and Malaysian States—do they also subscribe to a Sarimanok legend?

The political power of the Maranao did rise in the 19th C as the Maguindanao Sultanate faded. However, this power seemed to be more in relation to the Mindanao groups than the Sulu groups. This can be seen in the armed resistance in Mindanao to Spanish and American rule in the late 19th-early 20th C, which involved the Maranao to a large degree, but the Maguindanao (mostly via Datu Piang) were not interested in taking on the U.S. Pershing put down the rebelling Maranao fairly quickly, but the Sulu groups were persistent and were not defeated until the mid-1910s.

I mention this history because cultural iconography is often defined by the most powerful and successful groups within a defined culture. The Maranao were a powerful group in Mindanao in the late 19th C, but they were not as militarily powerful as the Sulu groups in terms of resisting the Americans. Why would Sulu groups, proud of their own cultural heritage, adopt a Maranao icon? And why would such an icon extend beyond Bangksa Moro to more distant Islamic groups?

I don't know a lot about the spread of the Sarimanok icon within the wider Moro groups. I would like to know more. However, as I have stated previously in this thread, I am skeptical about interpreting the shape of the pommel on kris and barung as reflecting a Sarimanok influence, except in the case of Maranao weapons.