Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

Oiling would be good unless you want to play with *arsenic* .

* which reminds me of an old joke about how the Barber killed his Wife with a rusty razor ... ;)










/are you reading this Jose ? :D

Tim, this blade is well on the way to being clean, but it is not yet clean enough to stain.

Every bit of rust must be removed.

If you go ahead and stain in this half clean condition you may not get a satisfactory finish.

A 10X loupe is too high a magnification for the job of picking out the rust from the pits. I suggest you try a 2.5X, or 3X, machinists loupe. I find I can work with one of these for very extended periods. Another way to go is an illuminated magnifier, or a pair of magnifying glasses.

You can also attack those tiny remaining bits of rust with hydrochloric acid. Just a drop at a time, and wait while it works, then wash off, and possibly kill it. If you use the hydrochloric, follow with another day or so in the pineapple juice.

Do not be in a hurry to get this job done.

Seven to ten days in pineapple juice is about usual for a blade in the condition your blade was in before you started.

I once spent over six months, working most week nights for an hour or so at picking the rust out of the pits in a Bali blade. If you want a job you can be proud of, you must work slowly and carefully.

When you do get this blade clean, and if you decide to go ahead with the arsenic stain, give it a really good polish with steel wool and a powder sink cleaner before you start. The blade must be white before you commence to stain.

Regarding the metuk.
As a generality, a lower quality tombak will have a metuk that is forged as a part of the blade, not a separately made and mechanically attached metuk. A village quality metuk will nearly always have this type of one piece construction, or sometimes with no metuk at all.
It is not necessarily related to age, although most recently made tombak do seem to have the integral metuk.
Note that I am talking in generalities. It is entirely possible for an old, good quality tombak to have an integral metuk, however, this is rare.

Listen to me talking like an expert :D . If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments.

Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight.

I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark.

Can you elucidate?

If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used?

I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc. :o

Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you.

I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live.

Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark.
Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite.

If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.

I think I would certainly have problems getting arsenic. I will look into it. There must be some other proprietary product that contains enough arsenic?

Realgar is a mineral that is available to mineral collectors. Some people have mentioned this as being the true "warangan" that we use in Jawa.

I know nothing about it and have never used it. Two people who I know who have tried it have both had no success in using it.

Ferric chloride which is available as a circuit board etchant, and is used by custom knife makers to etch damascus steel will give you a result. It will not give you the correct result, but it is easy, and better than nothing.

Industrial arsenic is not an option. It must be laboratory quality.

Has anyone tried sulphur base patination agents to stain steel black?

Fifty or so years ago I tried a Malay method reported by an Englishman in the 19th century, that used rice water, sulphur and possibly something else. It worked OK, but I only tried it once or twice.

If you wish I will locate the book and pass it on. Might take me a few days.

That would be very interesting. I have plenty of sulphur based products. If I was to try with sulphur presumably I can soak in juice again if I do not like the results. The sulphur based products can be used at various temperatures so some trial and error would have to be expected.

Tim.

I did a test with an old and worthless kerisblade at school with sulphuric acid. The chemistry teacher thought it was a nice experiment and was glad to help me with the stuff. She used a concentration lower than the acid in a car battery to control the process better. It worked, the pamor raised but the iron turned more greyish. Maybe if a stronger concentration was used the iron might turned darker, but in my opinion although it was fun to see the result nothing beats the result of the arsenic.

Perhaps the solution should have been heated. In my work the colouring of metals {precious metals mainly} is quite common. I have a sulphur based solution for the colouring of silver and bronze which I will try. I can get other colouring solutions. I will have to soak the blade agian as I have already oiled it. I will post the results.

Would that be Liver of Sulphur Tim ?

Gosh Rick that is a bit technical :confused: I should think it is something like that, only specially formulated. I will try this one at different temperatures, and on a price check I might try others. It is usually only the odd job that makes you get these things.

Just wondering 'cause my jeweler gave me a small can of chunks of some form of sulphur that he said he used to patinate silver and other metals .
The label said Liver of Sulphur ; I tried it on steel many years ago ; I know it darkened it but I can't remember whether it was grey , black or brown .

I think I'll save the rest for my neighbor's swimming pool when it gets noisy late at night .< evil grin >

hi all

its many spear in java, one of them called dapur biring, if have an inside curved each edges usualy called biring wadon, if have stright shape called biring lanang..

the picture that thread starter post, might be tombak biring lanang...


regards