independently of an opinion on the authenticity of # 1 # 2 # 3. I do see the importance of provenance, forgeries have reached the last two decades such a high level that every specialist can be fooled.
Unfortunately without clear provenance laboratory research has become essential.
A sword for example, that has been auctioned in the 30's at one of the famous auction houses gives me more confidence than one that just appears out of nowhere and where the origin is shrouded in mist, a so-called pop-up sword.
Swords that do not come from the ground and must have been kept indoors somewhere for 600 years, any information older than 20 years must be found without great effort.
I do not expect that any specialist whatsoever can give in all cases a definitive and infallible judgment, based on a visual inspection alone.
Some swords in my collection have been published in ROMS and the dimensions or describtion do not correspond with reality.
Furthermore, I know examples of original swords offered by famous auction houses as 19th century reproductions and, unfortunately also vice versa.
Some kind of Provenance, how short or unimportant it may look, is not everything but it helps.

best,

You are surely right, a proofed! provenance is always good. But how many medieval swords appear at auction with a provenance? Very very few!

The two swords in my thread: Early European arms captured by the Ottomans, were sold at auction without provenance. Are they therefore fakes? surely not! If genuine swords were catalogued as 19th century, the better it is for the experienced collector, to acquire swords for a moderate price. If a 19th century sword is catalogued as genuine, you can make no scientific test before you bit for it. Only your experienced eye can help you.

Best

Hi All,

Sorry for the late post.

The thing that also fascinates me about falchions 2 and 3 is that they both show similar damage. Their hilts have split in the same place, and their blade edges both show similar wear/damage/cracking at about the mid-point.

Fascinating. I'd expect to see different wear patterns on each blade.

I'm trying to figure out identical wear patterns could happen, under normal use and aging. To be fair, this might be a stereotypical wear pattern for this blade shape, as the Hamburg Museum falchion shows a corrosion hole on the blade where the other two show wear, and it is missing a hilt. One could argue that this blade tends to go in the middle and lose the wood from its hilt.

Still, similar wear patterns can be evidence of copying.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

it is not solely the 19th century reproductions but the recently made forgeries which are auctioned off as original which can represent a problem.
These swords are without a provenance or have a faked non-verifiable provenance.
The only way to deal with certainty about the authenticity is to show that the sword is or is not made ​​out of bloomery steel, so steel with inclusions of slag FE2SIO4, the only ferrous material available in the middle ages, this can only be detected at the microscopic level and not with an experienced eye only.
Luckily it does not happen on a large scale and of course the majority of the swords without provenance offered by renowned auction houses is OK. But each case is one too many.

best,

Does anyone happen to have a copy of "European Arms and Armor of the XV-XIX Century from the William Randolph Hearst Collection"?

It might be a good starting point to start trying to ascertain when these were obtained by Hearst, and from where.
It seems that Hearst Castle's collections registrar is unable to assist, as apparently when the castle was donated to the state of california in 1957, no documentation of the items was included.


So all we know of thier provenance is that they are attributed to the Hearst collection, and predate 1957.
Hardly the most solid of foundations yet, alas.

For friends of provenance!

Here are two photos from an excavated sword (no Falchion), which speaks for its own provenance. It was sold some years ago by a London dealer. The sword is of the same type as the Castillon group A swords. It was also found in France. The disc pommel is enamelled and bears an inscripion and arms, which give us a name and a date. The arms are those of Pierre de Cros, Archbishop of Arles, and the sword can not date later than 1383, where he was appointed as a Cardinal.

Comments welcome!

Best

yes, Iam a friend of provenance

I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade".
The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind.

If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg.
If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed.
(I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.)
Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me.
The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique.

best,

@JG Elmslie
the catalog from 1952 I have somewhere, I'll search.
I also have the index of 1939 but unfortunately only the index.

@Swordfish
I am also very curious about falchion # 3, is here a little more known about it than just the collection of a capable collector. Do you know when he acquired it, auction? collection?
Can you please reveal something about it?

best,

Well observed !

The blade, cross and pommel are surely genuine, but do they belong together? In this case no scientific test can ever help you, only your eye can help you.

When I saw the photo for the first time, the first that struck me, were the unbalanced proportions. The pommel is too large for a single hand sword. The blade and the remains of the cross show a close resemblance to the Castillon swords, including the patination and the corroded spots. For a single hand sword of this type I would also expect a pommel of wheel type and a tang button.

Pierre de Cros was appointed as Archbishop of Arles in 1374. If we assume that the pommel was not made much later, we have a date of c.1375. If we further assume, that the sword was not the first of its type, but in fashion ab. ten or twenty years before, we have a date for this sword type c. 1355-1365.

The Castillon swords are generally dated c.1410-1450. Is it likely that half of the swords from Castillon were of a nearly one hundred years old type? I don`t think so. I believe that the pommel was assembled to a cheap Castillon sword, to increase its value. I therefore would never acquire this sword.

But an assumption is no proof. Under usual circumstances, it would not be possible to proof that the pommel was added later.

But contacts to other collectors are allways helpfull. A collecting colleague of me saw this pommel many years ago as a single item in an antigue shop in Italy. He did not acquired it, because it was too expensive. I fully trust this collector. Then this is the proof for me.

Best

thanks, here we also agree.
because the tang is relatively wide, it is likely that the pommel did not fit at once.
Then somewhere material must have been removed, inside pommel or outside tang. if this is the case, it can be seen by the eye of an expert.

The collecting colleague, is he skilled and his first name starts with an F?

best,

If you'll forgive the resurrection of a resting post!

A fascinating discussion, thnaks to all for sharing the fruits of their research. The falchion is a weapon I am very interested in myself, and it is good to know that therre are more examples out there than I had hitherto known.

What are peoples' thoughts about the link between the flachion and the messer?

Welcome to the forum wardlaw :) .
Always time for a resurrection :cool: .
I hope you find it pleasant being with us.

Thanks Fernando.

I was going back over the thread and I see that J.G.Elmslie had already suggested a link between these blade forms. i am sure that he is right. I would also look at the hunting swords as another member of the family.

Wiht regard to the image of St Peter from Cracow, I wonder if the archetype here might not be the cleaver-like knife from a hunting trousseau? The argument against that, of course, is the hilt form, which is clearly sword rather than knife.

The synchronicity of three of us all working on aspects of falchions and messers is quite terrifying!

Guilty as charged.


I've been a bit lax in my research the last few months; been sidelined by historical consultancy work for a videogame company. It pays the bills...

that said, I've generally come to a few conclusions, as the research has slowly progressed, and I've been fortunate enough to address design details with the likes of Peter Johnsson.


I'm absolutely in agreement with (Mr?)Wardlaw, in regards to the hunting swords as well as messer. studying the falchion in isolation is futile, what's needed is the data on all the single-edged weapon forms of western europe - falchion, messer, the langes messer, the single-edged hangers, and the single-edged swords like the Bankside Sword now in the Royal Armouries.

All of these are inter-related, not just in terms of the handling properties, but in their design, construction, and their methodologies of use and the relevance in terms of social structure.

I'm steadily feeling that things like the messer were more popular in germanic regions as a result of cultural values, more than any practical difference in the weapons' performance, but also that their production was dictated by the different social structures, not so much the old trotted out idea of swords only being the property of certain social classes, but that sword production was the perogative of certain facets of the guilds, who each jealously guarded their niche markets, and in the case of cutlers and knife-blade makers, were actively wanting to muscle in on the economic markets that their similar skills could exploit.

I also cant help but feel that the falchion, messer and single-edged sword must be addressed and studied in light of Peter Johnsson's superb presentations/papers/potential book(s?) on the subject of the inter-relation between the medieval sword and geometric proportions. That may well begin to answer the question of asking is the falchion's place in social structures, in military importance, and in active use, different to that of the knightly sword? Research will have to be taken to compare the existing samples to their contemporary double edged weapons to find potential associations; particularly valuable there will be the castillon falchion, where there is the association with the Castillon Type C double-edged swords which have been found to have plausible associations of geometric proportion. Is it the case that a falchion which has quite likely come from the same cutler's wokshop bears similar proportional geometry, or is it entirely different? That's a unique case of a control subject for both sides of the divide. That study will determine if there's any links between the theories Peter's putting forward, of connotations of the design of the medieval european sword as an extension of God's divinity, and the numerical symbolism popular among the educated medieval thinkers, and if that then links into the specific commentary by the likes of John of Salisbury, in "policraticus", where the phrases such as "His word is indeed a sharp two-edged sword" appear - not a sword, but a two-edged sword. Does this indicate the association of the single-edged sword with work that is not reighteous? There's a whole load of un-answered questions there just begging to be looked at. We already know that the falchion is often seen in the hands of the heretic, the blasphemer, the infidel, in medieval art - the falchion/scimitar weilding turk, the depiction of Goliath, the soldier in the Crucifixion. Can those connotations be not just a visual imagery for the artwork, but also a design consideration that may, to some extent give a possible explanation for the disparity between prevalence in art, and in the archaeological record? I dont know, yet.
Such studies must be done, and are as relevant as establishing a typology, or establishing a database of the actual mechanical properties of these weapons.

The more you dive into the single-edged european arms, the more the falchion becomes just one aspect, and the deeper the rabbit-hole becomes...

the relationship between the falchion and the messer? well


the only thing consistent with the Falchion and Messer is that they both are single edged.
The Falchion is a sword with a pommel and cross, necessary to be a sword.
the grosses messer has no pommel and usually no cross, but a thorn or curved riveted parry plate, and of course grip plates necessary to be a messer.
swords were made by sword cutlers, and messers by a knife cutler, who were not allowed to make swords.
also in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible.
I believe that there is a geometric relationship in the design of these messers similar to swords, which can be tested with the excellent theory of Peter.
on the other hand you see the Falchion develop into curved single edged swords (with a pommel and cross) and cutlasses. eg dussage, storta


best,

Do you have any numbers at hand, or suitable references? These would be very interesting to see.

likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions.

the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only.

so, any info would be most welcome.

I have 3 Messers in my collection,

see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=messer post#1

pm me your mail adres and I will mail you the details, I can also send directly to Peter Johnsson if you want.
I'm curious how the widest point of the blade, at the second half of the blade at a Falchion, can be expressed in the old geometry "rigthteousness is quadrangular"

best,

Having just clicked the link and seen the photos, I just developed a strange medical condition, and turned a thorough shade of green...

you lucky, lucky bastard.

(I mean that in the best possible way, I hasten to add. :D )

I'll send a PM in a moment about that.
I'm likewise rather interested to see if and how the geometry might (or might not) be found to have an association for this type of weapon too. Having seen his presentation on the subject, I'm certain it was used for some swords, but I am sceptical it was used for all. But finding the same sort of ratios in a messer would be really exciting.

correct. Particularly among the german states, the style of short curved messer/falchion became associated with that action and took the name.

sort of like a Bowie knife is named after the person it was associated with.
Named after the well-known british musician....(sorry. I'm joking there. could'nt resist.)

J.G. Elmslie - it's the cultural element that fascinates me; the socio-cultural symbolism of the falchion and messer (it's appearance in art and literature) suggest to me that it had a particular resonance within western European society. I'm trying to get a paper written up that I gave at the International Medieval Congress a couple of years back on the subject, but other projects and commitments keeping getting in the way :mad:

The use of 'Malchus' as a term for a falchion in Germany was mentioned earlier in this thread, with some consideration of its origins and earliest usage. I don;t think, however, that a firm conclusion was reached on how early this term was used?

(It's Dr actually, in so far as it matters ;) ) Wardlaw - or Rob Jones - either suits.

Falchion Measurements
 

Hi. Congratulations on the amazing post. Priceless amount of information. I wonder if you have measurements of the falchion at Public Museum in Germany. The same one you've posted on this thread. Thank you.